EPSTEIN EXPOSED

Depositions/Ghislaine Maxwell — DOJ Prison Interview (Todd Blanche)

Ghislaine Maxwell — DOJ Prison Interview (Todd Blanche)

DOJ Investigation·Thursday, July 24, 2025·6h 7m

16 WAV files (11 interview + 5 test). 2-day interview by DAG Todd Blanche at FCI Tallahassee, July 24-25, 2025. Some parts redacted (R).

View Ghislaine Maxwell's Profile

4,510 segments~52K wordsSource

0:00

Today's date is Thursday July 24th this will be the recording of a proffer

0:10

agreement of Delane Maxwell from the Deputy Attorney General DOJ and the time

0:19

is currently 9 16. Maxwell and counsel are arriving to the US Attorney's

0:26

office and we will commence the proffer shortly.

0:00

I'm going to ask him to put the name on the record, of course.

0:06

Good morning.

0:07

My name is Assistant Special Agent in Charge Spencer Horn of FBI New York.

0:12

Today we are doing a proper of Ms. Maxwell.

0:15

The date is July 24th and the time is 10, 12 a.m.

0:25

This interview is being recorded.

0:30

And my name is Todd Blanch.

0:32

I'm Deputy Attorney General and before we start formally asking questions of Ms. Maxwell,

0:40

I'm going to put on the record everybody that's in this room in addition to me.

0:47

Starting with you, Diego.

0:48

Diego Pastana, Associate Deputy Attorney General.

0:51

And then you heard from Special Agent in Charge Horn.

0:55

Mark Beard from the United States Marshals Services here as well.

0:59

And then David.

1:01

This is David Oscar Marcus and I'm counsel for Gillen Maxwell.

1:07

My name is Thea Sapien and I'm counsel for Gillen Maxwell.

1:11

My name is Melissa Madrigal and I'm counsel for Gillen Maxwell.

1:16

Go ahead.

1:17

And I'm Gillen Maxwell.

1:21

Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.

1:22

How are you?

1:23

Good morning, Mr. Blanch.

1:24

Good.

1:25

Okay.

1:26

So before we started recording, we met for a few minutes.

1:29

I introduced myself and we chatted and now I told you that we were going on the record.

1:34

And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given by your lawyer a copy of what's called a proffer agreement.

1:44

And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what governs our conversation today.

1:53

The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement,

1:57

meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting.

2:01

I'm not promising to do anything.

2:03

I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that's been assigned to your case to do anything.

2:10

We're just talking.

2:12

And so that's the most important, important part of this agreement.

2:16

However, almost as important is the fact that what this agreement does for you is it gives you protection.

2:24

So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you with some exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute.

2:33

But whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity.

2:37

So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in a case in chief if we were ever to bring one.

2:44

Okay.

2:45

Thank you.

2:46

There's exceptions to that.

2:48

The most meaningful one of which is that if you say something today that's not true, that's a lie.

2:53

We can bring a prosecution against you for what's called false statements.

2:57

So I'm a federal officer.

3:00

I have several officers here.

3:02

The FBI is here.

3:04

And if you lie to someone that's like me or like Special Agent Horn, it's a crime.

3:10

So you have to be truthful.

3:12

The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily apply directly to you.

3:16

But if there ever was a retrial in your case or if there ever was a criminal case, a future criminal case against you and your lawyer or you said something different or took a position that's different than what you say today, we can then cross examine you or witness based upon what you say today.

3:40

So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I can't use what you say against you in our case in chief.

3:46

However, if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a witness to testify and they said something that is totally different than what you say today, we could then cross examine you or the witness and say, hey, do you remember when we met with Ms.

4:01

When we met with Ms.

4:02

Maxwell back in July of 2025, she told us and then say what she said.

4:07

OK, OK.

4:10

Other than that, I know you didn't have a lot of time this morning to meet with with with Mr.

4:16

Marcus, but did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him?

4:20

I did.

4:21

All right. So I've already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn and Mr.

4:26

Marcus signed it as well.

4:27

So you got to sign it right where it says clients.

4:30

Yep.

4:32

And I will provide a copy of this to your lawyer so you guys have it.

4:36

OK.

4:38

Thank you.

4:40

So Ms.

4:41

Maxwell, about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago.

4:49

On the Sony.

4:51

Yeah.

4:57

OK, we're just confirming that it works and it does.

5:00

Ms.

5:01

Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago, Mr.

5:04

Marcus reached out to me and said that that you wanted to speak with somebody from the

5:11

government about not only your case, but about everything that's been in the media and that's

5:18

been publicized about Mr.

5:21

That is true.

5:22

And I did speak to him and I did ask him did tell him that I was very keen to talk to anyone

5:32

because no one from the government at any time ever since the inception of the case,

5:39

so dating back to the early two councils, has ever spoken to me and indeed, I believe,

5:47

ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me.

5:51

And that includes up to when I was indicted and prosecuted.

5:57

I believe that, or I understand I should say rather, that my attorneys at the time did tell

6:07

the government that I wanted to speak to them because I was very keen to meet with anyone

6:14

so that I could tell or have them ask me any questions.

6:18

I've never had any problem to speak to anybody and I offered myself and I kept asking if they

6:26

would make a case that I could speak to them for whatever reason.

6:31

That was not happening.

6:33

Okay.

6:34

I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not, there's a path that, a question that

6:42

I'm not asking that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer.

6:46

Same thing goes to your lawyers.

6:48

Just to start a little bit very briefly, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein,

6:58

I know that goes back a while, and just very generally talk about your relationship with

7:03

Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until his death?

7:10

I met Mr. Epstein in 1991.

7:16

I'd never heard of him or met him before and no one in my family had ever either.

7:29

My father never knew him and I'll explain why that is the case.

7:34

Where did you meet him?

7:37

I had a girlfriend who, I had moved to America briefly in 1990.

7:53

I had come to visit America in 1990.

7:58

I had been running my own company up until that time, which was a company called Natural

8:05

Corporate Gifts, and I had also been working for my father at the time.

8:12

I had multiple jobs with him.

8:14

I was in 1990, I was working with a new company of his, a newspaper that he was launching,

8:25

called The European, and I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with The European.

8:37

I was travelling at that time from England to America because my father was looking to,

8:48

well, he'd also bought Macmillan the publishing house and he had purchased the New York Daily News.

8:57

It's true to say that my father always wanted me to come back full-time and work for him,

9:05

but that's a much longer story.

9:07

I don't think we need to go into it this time, but I was always working with him.

9:13

There was no escaping, as it were, to work for him.

9:17

So in 1990, I had come over to New York to help look at some of that.

9:26

He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News, and in fact I met, I may have met,

9:34

Donald Trump at that time because my father was friendly with him and liked him very much,

9:41

and I think it should be said that he also very much liked Ivana

9:47

because she was also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from.

9:51

So I don't remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad,

9:56

but I knew that that's how I knew about Mr. Trump.

10:00

And this was before you met Mr. Epstein?

10:04

Yes, so I was already going backwards and forwards in America.

10:08

And then in April of 1991, I came to New York.

10:17

I can't remember for what reason, or business reason, but there was a business reason,

10:22

something to do with my dad at that time.

10:24

And a girlfriend of mine who was an American told me,

10:30

I'd broken up with my long-term boyfriend when we broke up.

10:39

So I said, as your girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet.

10:43

And I was like, who is it?

10:45

And she goes, he's been dating my sister.

10:48

You'll love him. He's looking for a wife.

10:50

I'm edging towards 30.

10:52

I don't need to tell you guys that's an important moment for a girl

10:55

to think about important things.

10:57

I sure won't be happy to meet him.

11:00

And so sometime in 1991, we're in 1991,

11:06

I met him at his offices on Madison Avenue.

11:13

And I think the most memorable thing I can think about

11:18

is he was wearing a tie which he didn't often give me.

11:20

It had a giant tomato ketchup stain on it.

11:24

So I was like, wow, OK.

11:27

And that was how we met.

11:29

Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally

11:34

or were you there for work-related reasons?

11:38

I knew nothing about him.

11:40

He just invited me to come and have tea.

11:44

And I was like, tea? That's English. OK.

11:46

But what was unusual was in his offices.

11:48

So I went to his offices and we met.

11:51

And I found him very engaging and that was that.

11:57

OK, so that's how you meet him.

12:00

And again, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this particular issue,

12:06

but what happened with your relationship over the years

12:10

from the time you meet him in 1991 up until the time he passed away?

12:15

Just give the highlights.

12:16

OK, so I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some.

12:24

And Epstein told me that he was also looking to move from his apartment

12:28

and would I help him.

12:30

And I said, sure, I'm looking already so I could look for him.

12:33

So that's how it started.

12:35

And then in 1991, my father passed away.

12:38

And I returned to New York after that,

12:41

originally to come back and help with the family businesses,

12:44

which was in the middle of England.

12:47

And then the debacle of my father's passing hit the family

12:54

and we lost all our businesses.

13:00

And my family thought that it would be best if I stayed in America

13:04

because of the intensity of the press and the drama

13:09

surrounding my father's death in England.

13:11

So I stayed and Epstein said, well, you can keep helping me.

13:17

Help me find that house and decorate the house.

13:21

They gave me something to do.

13:24

Were you in a romantic relationship with him at this point or just friends?

13:28

Just friends.

13:29

And with respect to your father,

13:33

there have been multiple questions about whether he worked

13:39

for any intelligence agency.

13:41

Do you have any knowledge about that?

13:45

I think, well, certainly my father had a background in intelligence

13:48

because he was, I believe he did in the Second World War,

13:54

he was a British intelligence officer.

13:58

I think that my sort of belief is that once you've been an intelligence officer,

14:03

it doesn't mean that you're formally employed.

14:07

So I don't think my dad in any formal sense was, you know,

14:12

employed by any agency.

14:16

But when you are a very significant businessman and politician,

14:23

as my father was, you meet with people all over the time

14:28

and you, I guess, trade business or ideas.

14:34

I think we fall under that definition.

14:38

I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing.

14:45

But if you're asking me if I thought that he did help people,

14:49

the answer would be yes, I did.

14:51

Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years?

14:55

I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit.

14:57

They never met.

14:59

As far as you know, they never even met.

15:01

No, I know they never met.

15:03

Well, how do you know they never met?

15:05

Just categorically know they never met.

15:07

Well, because after, in 1991, before my father died,

15:13

he asked me if I'd met anybody interesting or whatever,

15:18

because I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business.

15:23

And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein.

15:25

And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein

15:27

was because I believed at that time that Epstein worked for Bear Stearns.

15:32

And Bear Stearns was one of our banks.

15:35

And I knew that my father was friendly with both Jimmy Kane and with Ace Greenberg.

15:41

So my dad was actually in New York, I think.

15:46

I don't think I had this conversation on the phone that I was talking 30 years ago,

15:51

so I'm not sure.

15:52

But maybe I told him this verbatim because I haven't.

15:58

I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether he did it and told me later,

16:03

I thought I don't remember.

16:05

But he called both Jimmy Kane and Ace Greenberg to ask what sort of guy he was

16:12

and was he even allowed to, because I don't know.

16:18

So they never met.

16:22

He didn't even know who he was.

16:23

But they knew some of the same people, it sounds like,

16:27

certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something that you knew that they had.

16:32

Well, he never had a connection with Epstein.

16:34

He had a connection with the bank.

16:36

I mean, Epstein, I'd never heard of him or knew of him before.

16:39

And certainly if my dad had known him, right, when I said this was who he was,

16:43

he didn't know who he was.

16:45

So he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him.

16:51

I just want to explain briefly why my father would even do such a thing.

17:11

I've had some interesting things that have happened in my life.

17:18

And one of them was to be found on an IRA kidnapping and murder case.

17:27

So after that happened, well, there were other related,

17:33

I'm not going to bore you with all the horrible things in that vein,

17:37

but if you want the details, of course, if I can.

17:41

But after that happened, my father wanted to put a lot of protection on Epstein.

17:51

And I declined on the grounds that that would be a very life-restricting event.

17:58

You all know the enforcement, I know you understand this.

18:01

And so he had told me that I would be taking my life in my own hands or whatever.

18:11

And so I think after that event and several others where I had to do crazy things

18:16

that one has, he was always quite protective of me.

18:20

And so if I met somebody, he would try and verify that they weren't going to do anything to me.

18:27

They weren't going to do anything hideous.

18:29

And so in case you thought it was weird that he would call Jimmy an ace,

18:35

you may think it is, but from my perspective, he was just because he was concerned

18:41

I was in America alone and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was.

18:47

And so I don't know if I was in the room with him, I don't recall,

18:50

but I know that at some point my father told me, he's fine.

18:53

You can see it. He's safe.

18:56

Well, okay.

18:58

So we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point,

19:03

but I went down a rabbit hole for a minute.

19:05

That's all right. I just wanted to...

19:06

No, that's helpful. Thank you.

19:08

So, okay, so you're now in the 90s and you're friends with Mr. Epstein,

19:14

you're decorating the house or the apartment.

19:17

What happened with your relationship again?

19:20

I know we're talking about a 35-year time period or whatever,

19:24

but to the extent you can kind of at a very high level talk about it.

19:28

Listen, I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point.

19:32

So in 1992, I slept with him one time.

19:38

And I was like, whoa, that's it. We're going to be dating.

19:41

Because that's how I thought.

19:43

And I kind of thought of myself in that moment,

19:47

because if you slept with someone in that room and you were dating them,

19:54

that's the world I came from.

19:56

But that really worked. Well, that's how I thought.

19:59

But we didn't sleep together again for, I don't know,

20:03

really a significant period of time.

20:05

Like years or?

20:07

I don't know if it was a year.

20:13

That feels long, but maybe nine months. I mean, a long time.

20:18

Okay.

20:19

I just want to go back.

20:21

I had found a house for him to rent in New York because he had asked me.

20:28

I'd been looking for my father and I found one,

20:31

which was a former Iranian embassy.

20:34

I think it was. I think it belonged to the Iranians or the Iraqis.

20:38

Someone.

20:40

And I didn't know that he had any money, really.

20:44

And it was, I want to say it was $20,000 a month, which really seemed like fortune.

20:50

And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't think you can afford it.

20:54

It was ridiculous. Of course I couldn't afford it.

20:57

And that house came with, it was a State Department house,

21:00

because I think it was under sector station or whatever it was.

21:04

And I put it back together, but there were certain rules it couldn't paint

21:07

because it had to go back, and he gave it back to the country.

21:11

So he had this house and I had moved into a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment

21:20

because all of our stuff had been either lost or frozen or whatever.

21:29

So he became, in his moment, my life.

21:31

I agree because I suspect everything felt very similar to his moment,

21:37

if that makes any sense.

21:39

Anyway, so, but I had no key to his house.

21:42

I had no free access to his house.

21:46

And then the entire time that he lived there,

21:48

which was I believe until the beginning of 1996,

21:52

I never slept a single night in that house, ever.

21:58

But you, so you said a minute ago that you had slept with him on one occasion,

22:06

and at the time you remember thinking that this meant you were in a relationship,

22:10

but then it didn't, you really were not in that type of relationship.

22:14

Did that change between 1991 and 1992 or whatever, and years forward?

22:20

So I did travel with him.

22:25

So I would go to his house in Palm Beach.

22:28

He only had that house actually.

22:30

No, that's not true.

22:32

He had a house in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio.

22:36

In where?

22:37

Ohio.

22:38

Okay.

22:39

And he had the house in Ohio because of his business relationship with Mr. Wexner.

22:46

And he had a, and I had to go and decorate and put that house together.

22:52

When we traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not in the room.

23:00

But I didn't.

23:01

Go ahead, it's okay. Talk.

23:06

So you stayed, so when you would travel with him to, his house is in Palm Beach, Ohio,

23:12

or even just traveling, if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed,

23:20

so sleep in the same bed with him.

23:22

Yes.

23:23

Okay.

23:29

Epstein told me that he had a heart condition.

23:34

A what?

23:35

Heart condition.

23:36

Heart condition, okay.

23:37

Which meant that he didn't have intercourse.

23:42

Which he didn't have, because I actually do have a medical condition,

23:48

which proves me having a lot of intercourse.

23:56

So what was your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him from having intercourse regularly?

24:05

I mean, he liked other forms of...

24:21

Well, let's come back.

24:22

We're going to obviously spend some time, a lot of time on the actual conduct he was accused of,

24:28

so we'll come back to that.

24:30

So pick up where you were talking about you traveling around with him.

24:36

He rented the New York, a former Iranian house.

24:42

Iranian, yeah.

24:43

Until around 96.

24:46

That time, I believe you said that he was basically your life, like you were with him pretty regularly.

24:52

Well, I, no.

24:54

Okay.

24:55

So I never was with him regularly.

24:56

Okay.

24:57

That is one of those misnames.

24:58

Okay.

24:59

I mean, at the beginning, I did see more of him, but I worked in his office,

25:02

so I would go to the office and I would see him, and I would count in my head when I would see him,

25:07

I would count that that would be a day that I would see him.

25:11

But I never, ever stayed with him.

25:14

I believe, certainly until 93 or 94, what I didn't know was that I think he was still with his actual girlfriend,

25:24

who was Eva Anderson then.

25:27

He became Eva Jubilee.

25:29

They had been together, my understanding, I think about 10 years.

25:35

I'm not sure, but that's what I think, 10 years.

25:39

And I had understood from my girlfriend initially that they weren't together,

25:44

and Epsiom himself had told me that they were not together, but I don't think that was true.

25:50

So they were still together up until, I think, 94 when, at some point,

25:57

in that period when Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got married.

26:01

I think in 94, I don't remember when they got married.

26:04

But her, she was his best friend and his everything.

26:12

He told me that he always wished that he had married her and had a child with her.

26:17

And I know that she was family for him, for his whole life.

26:21

And I think even, I'm not sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is true or not,

26:26

when he came back from Paris and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the plane.

26:33

Now, I think that either I read it in the discovery that I received or I saw it somewhere.

26:40

But even if she wasn't on the plane, there must have been some email communication

26:44

where she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly back, one or the other.

26:48

I don't know which one is the correct version of that.

26:51

So they were still obviously very close and remained throughout the time.

26:56

In fact, he saw her.

27:00

And so I also know now, which I didn't know at the time, was that he saw lots of other women.

27:06

And I know that now because I can see it from the flight logs.

27:12

And I know it now because I can see from the emails.

27:17

So you know from the case that what happened.

27:20

Yes, I didn't know that.

27:22

At contemporaneity, I absolutely did not know.

27:24

So OK, so just we're going to spend time on everything you're talking about,

27:28

but just to kind of close out big picture your relationship.

27:32

So we're now in the late 90s.

27:36

Continue on with, again, staying high level to the extent you can about your relationship with him.

27:42

So after. So my responsibilities increased with each acquisition and each new project.

27:53

So I believe the first thing that he purchased after was the ranch in New Mexico.

28:07

And so what he had tasked me with, I think that was purchased in 1994.

28:13

So he had tasked me.

28:15

One of the things that we did was visit.

28:18

In my mind, I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every state, but many states to go look at real estate.

28:24

And so I know we went to Montana.

28:26

I know we went to Utah.

28:28

And it was to go look at real estate.

28:31

It was fun, to be honest.

28:33

And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico.

28:36

And he just loved New Mexico.

28:39

And then I don't remember how the ranch happened.

28:42

I don't remember that now it's lost.

28:44

And then he ended up buying the ranch.

28:47

And then I had to deal with that.

28:58

Dealing with that was extensive.

29:00

I mean, the way that I thought of myself or the way that I think is the best way to explain how I view my role as a general manager,

29:09

because each property to me was like a hotel.

29:12

So the ranch was very challenging because not only that, but it had BLM land.

29:18

So to maintain your BLM, you had to have cattle.

29:23

And I love animals.

29:25

And so the first thing, horses.

29:27

So I wanted it.

29:29

If you're going to have a ranch, I like authenticity.

29:33

So I don't think you should have a ranch.

29:35

You're not going to have the things that make it special.

29:38

So were you paid by him along the way during this time?

29:45

I became salaried at some point.

29:49

My memory is that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with.

29:54

That's my memory.

29:55

I may be wrong.

29:56

And then with each, as it became more obvious, because I kept thinking I was going to have a home being in it.

30:04

And financially, you were not relying on him.

30:10

The $25,000 or whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on that money to live and his generosity to live?

30:18

Or did you have your own money?

30:21

And again, I want to just make sure we're talking about keeping it between the late 90s, maybe I guess into a little of the 2000s.

30:30

I just want to hit something on the head right now.

30:32

There's a tremendous amount of recording that said that I had a trust fund.

30:37

Thank you.

30:38

A trust fund.

30:39

I have never had a trust fund.

30:40

At any time.

30:41

So how did you live?

30:42

Did you live with, I mean, $25,000 is not enough to live on?

30:45

No.

30:46

So I had, during this period of time, a secret.

30:50

The Sirius Ford Squad had come to see me in relation to my father's passing.

30:55

And to establish whether I had been involved in any way with his business or with any shenanigans.

31:06

I've told the story many times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat hypocritical, but I'll tell you what my memory is.

31:12

I received a letter from them that said, you can't go about my business.

31:16

And my memory may be hypocritical.

31:19

There was a PS that said, I used to know what it's custom.

31:22

I had nothing.

31:23

I was never involved in any of his business, whatever.

31:27

So I was free.

31:28

Were you, so, but you're, you know, obviously your father and your family had a lot of businesses.

31:37

Is it because the money, whatever money or whatever equity was in the businesses just stayed with your other family members?

31:46

No, there was no money.

31:48

So my father was never attached to me.

31:54

He was born a peasant, a real one.

31:58

Dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes.

32:02

Some clothes, but not, you know, sorry, I don't mean to say, nothing.

32:08

And he never, he was never into that.

32:12

I mean, there were things that he had his extravagances.

32:15

He loved his boat and his plane.

32:17

So obviously you need money for that, but there was no nothing else.

32:20

And there was not a single penny that came to any of us at any time ever.

32:26

Okay.

32:27

So, so when you're talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the nineties, you're, you're not, you're, you're very different financially.

32:37

You're very different financially position than he is, meaning he's giving you money.

32:42

He's paying for your, when you fly, he has to pay for your flights.

32:45

Yes.

32:46

Okay.

32:49

Okay.

32:50

So you, you, I interrupted you when you were saying how you were functioning as general manager, you helped with the New Mexico ranch.

32:56

So did, did your role with him continue like that for many years or for how long?

33:04

So I continued in 2000, by 1999, our relationship had founded.

33:14

Why?

33:18

Well, two reasons.

33:19

Two reasons.

33:20

We were never sleeping together again.

33:21

So we stopped having sexual relations in 1999.

33:26

Not full sex.

33:29

Sorry.

33:30

Just to be clear.

33:31

Didn't mean that we didn't still share a bedroom sometimes or whatever.

33:35

He had another girlfriend.

33:38

He had what?

33:39

Other girlfriends.

33:40

I definitively knew that it was over after 9-11 actually.

33:47

Because we were both from New York.

33:52

And I don't know, were you in New York?

33:55

I mean, 9-11s.

34:00

And it was a scary time if you were in New York.

34:03

You didn't know.

34:04

I didn't know.

34:05

Nobody knew what was going on.

34:07

And he was in 71st Street and I was in 65th Street, my house.

34:14

And he wouldn't see me, at all.

34:21

I saw his mum, who I'm very close to, who's in the hospital at Lennox Hill,

34:25

started looking after her.

34:28

And then I knew, as anyone did at that time,

34:31

if you're not going to be there for someone you've known for 11 years,

34:34

you're never going to be there.

34:35

So to me, that was the line he said.

34:38

And he had another English girlfriend, actually, from 2000.

34:47

Were you, though, still on his, are you still being paid by him at this point?

34:52

Yes.

34:53

Okay, so go ahead.

34:55

So at that point, when you say you realized, kind of...

35:00

Well, I mean, I'm talking about the, I had had, there was a,

35:05

I wanted to get married and have children.

35:08

And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that,

35:16

I don't know about the, certainly by the late 90s,

35:19

I knew the marriage part was never going to happen.

35:21

I had believed that maybe in 96, 97, 98, maybe.

35:26

But then I realized it wasn't that.

35:27

But I did think that we might have a child, which is what I had really wanted.

35:34

And I realized that.

35:37

Okay, so what happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your relationship with him?

35:46

Give or take 2001.

35:48

So we stopped having physicality.

35:51

I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't friends.

35:53

I certainly did stay sometimes in his room.

35:55

I mean, friends with benefits, if you will, just not sex.

36:03

And I started dating.

36:06

Okay.

36:07

And I met someone that I found very much in love with in 2003.

36:14

His name was Ted Waite.

36:18

Ted Waite, who you may know as the founder of Gable, the computers.

36:24

And we had an amazing relationship that ended in, went on until 2010, I think.

36:35

And I was with Ted from that time.

36:38

Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?

36:40

No.

36:41

Well, indirectly.

36:43

I suppose you could say so.

36:45

They never met.

36:47

I was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't.

36:53

I was with President Clinton.

36:58

President Clinton was my friend, not Epstein's friend.

37:01

And Epstein had flown here.

37:05

And I was at dinner and Ted came to the door.

37:08

So I guess indirectly through Mr. Epstein, because it was his plane.

37:12

But I'd have been there anyway without him.

37:14

Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew?

37:17

On that trip, yes.

37:19

Well, yes.

37:22

Yes.

37:24

So when you say the dinner was where?

37:28

Holden.

37:30

Okay.

37:31

And so you had flown over with...

37:34

So who was on the plane for that trip?

37:36

I don't mean everybody.

37:37

So Mr. Epstein was on the plane?

37:39

Yes.

37:40

You were on the plane?

37:41

Yes.

37:42

Who else?

37:43

I don't remember.

37:44

I'm not...

37:45

You only know what you remember.

37:47

Was President Clinton on the plane?

37:49

Clinton.

37:50

He would have had his guy, Doug Vance.

37:55

Maybe Jason Cooper.

37:58

Oh.

38:00

And so how did you meet?

38:05

So why did he say that's when you met him and that you met him through Clinton?

38:09

Well, I don't think Ted would have been there had it not been...

38:13

President Clinton dinner and Ted came with President Clinton not to go with Mr. Epstein.

38:19

Does that make sense?

38:20

Yes.

38:21

That's why I say that.

38:22

Okay.

38:23

So in the time that you're dating, that you're with him to 2009, are you still working for

38:30

Mr. Epstein during that time?

38:31

No.

38:32

So here's...

38:33

It would be true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, Mr. Epstein tried very hard to

38:38

keep me to working for him because I mean this is a complex operation.

38:45

I'm not talking about anything untoward.

38:48

Just the sheer size of the projects.

38:50

I'm talking about construction projects, the houses, the star.

38:54

It's a really significant job.

38:58

And I ran all the properties, the staff in the properties, the management of the properties

39:05

and all the construction.

39:08

And we're talking tens of millions of dollars.

39:11

I can't remember what the budget was for construction on any given year.

39:17

It's gone.

39:18

But these are very significant projects.

39:21

And so that was what I did and I managed the budgets.

39:26

Well, I didn't manage the budgets.

39:27

I oversaw the budgets.

39:28

So I would just make sure that if you said you bought an air conditioning plant, I saw

39:36

an air conditioning plant and I could call the island manager, did you receive the carrier,

39:43

whatever, you know.

39:46

When did Mr. Epstein purchase the island?

39:49

I want to say 1996 or 1997, something like that.

39:54

Okay, so we're going to come back and spend more time on the money with respect to Mr.

39:59

Epstein and his wealth.

40:01

But just so we can finish this.

40:04

So in 2009, you ended your relationship with Ted?

40:08

Yes, in 2010.

40:10

I can't remember if it was 2010.

40:12

So in that time period, what happens next as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein?

40:16

I don't have one with him.

40:18

You don't have one with him, like, you don't see him or it's just a different relationship?

40:24

I did see, I maybe saw him once or twice, maybe even three times.

40:29

I certainly went to his house once, for sure.

40:32

Maybe twice.

40:33

But I was not seeing him.

40:36

The only time that I was in touch with him was when things happened.

40:44

Like things that were in the crest that affected me, or when the CVRA case was filed and there was all that rubbish that went out.

40:52

Because I needed information.

40:54

Because I didn't know anything about what was happening and I needed his help.

41:00

A, to understand.

41:02

I don't want to make this sound right.

41:05

I don't mean his help.

41:07

I meant to have answers so that I had an ability to defend myself.

41:14

So when does that relationship change?

41:17

So you're working, you talked about when the physical relationship stopped.

41:22

And then you're still working for him or with him, managing his properties and serving as a general manager.

41:29

You then start your own relationship with another individual, with Ted, from 2003 until 2009 or 2010.

41:36

At what point in that whole period is there more of a break where you're no longer acting as his general manager?

41:42

I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted.

41:46

And he was clever.

41:50

I suppose it would be true to say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epps at that point as sort of family, if you will.

41:58

Like someone I could rely on.

42:00

And I should have had more confidence in myself, I can see that now.

42:06

But at the time, given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it would...

42:12

And I saw how he was with other people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable saying that.

42:18

And he always said I was like family.

42:21

So he worked hard to maintain a relationship with me.

42:27

He was generous with me.

42:29

He never used the pain, which was very generous.

42:33

He would check in with my mum.

42:41

Things that were meaningful to me in that time.

42:45

And then, it may still not have worked, but his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious car crash.

42:56

And she had become sort of like a surrogate mother to me, sort of because my mum wasn't there.

43:05

I could look after her the way that I would have liked to look after my own mum.

43:19

So I became very close to his mother.

43:22

And she had been in a car crash in 2004, I believe.

43:30

It may have been five, I don't recall exactly.

43:34

Her health took a serious decline.

43:38

And Epstein called me and asked me if I could look after her.

43:44

By looking after her, that meant organising her doctors, making sure she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean.

43:57

Where was she?

43:58

She lived in a retirement establishment outside of Palm Beach, outside of West Palm.

44:08

I was going to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not called that.

44:12

I just don't remember what it's called.

44:15

But it was an old age, it was a retirement home, if you will.

44:18

Todd, I don't know, we've been going for maybe about an hour now.

44:21

Do you think this is a good time?

44:23

Yeah, so we'll take a break.

44:26

Alright, so we're going to take a break.

44:28

The time is 10.56.

0:02

I were continuing the proper interview with Ms. Maxwell.

0:07

The time is 11.07 a.m. on Thursday, July 24th.

0:12

All right.

0:13

So just picking up where we just stopped.

0:17

So you have basically a break, well not a break, that's the wrong word, but your relationship

0:24

with Mr. Maxwell, professional and other changes in 2003-04?

0:28

Yeah.

0:30

Yeah, I mean over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm with Ted, the more

0:35

distance I have with him.

0:37

And then when the arrest, well let's go back, whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested

0:46

in 2003.

0:47

So when he's charged and arrested in what we'll call the Florida investigations, that's

0:53

what you're talking about?

0:55

I am.

0:56

Okay, go ahead.

0:57

I had, I was not in, well.

1:02

Well were you a part of that investigation?

1:04

Absolutely not.

1:05

Did law enforcement ever talk to you as part of that?

1:08

No.

1:09

Did you, like, the feds never talked to you, the FBI never talked to you?

1:11

No.

1:12

I never even received a phone call.

1:14

Did you, so you didn't receive a subpoena?

1:16

No.

1:17

Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you?

1:20

No.

1:21

So as far as you know, did the government, either state or federal, subpoena your bank

1:28

records or subpoena anything from your financial life during that time, during that time?

1:35

Not as far as I'm aware.

1:36

Now if they did, I don't know it and I have no idea about that, to be honest, but I'm

1:40

not aware of it and I would say no, but maybe you guys do things that I don't know.

1:45

So how did you learn of that case when Mr. Epson was arrested or did you know that something

1:50

was happening before then?

1:53

The first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in

2:01

Palm Beach.

2:04

Didn't surprise me.

2:05

It was like a rolling situation.

2:06

But by that time, are you doing, are you, like, he tells you because he wants your help

2:11

or had your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as

2:15

his general manager?

2:16

No.

2:17

I was, I was still around.

2:23

I wasn't gone.

2:24

I was with Ted.

2:25

I was traveling.

2:26

I wasn't daily.

2:27

If you'd asked me where he was in any given time, I'm not sure I would have known then.

2:32

I mean, it was, I felt like, I suppose the relationship moved into sort of like a long

2:42

term friend, family, you know, like, like I felt he had with Eva, if I'm honest.

2:47

Okay.

2:48

So, so he says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach house?

2:52

He asked me specifically which decorator he thinks he should use because I had a lot of

2:57

contacts with decorators and he was not very good with people.

3:05

He was useless at maintaining relationships with people who worked for him.

3:12

I'm not.

3:13

So, anyway, so I recommended, I think I recommended, I can't be 100% sure because it's been a long

3:23

time, but I think I recommended Mark Zeph at that time.

3:26

Who?

3:27

Mark Zeph.

3:28

Okay.

3:29

I believe.

3:30

And I don't know why.

3:31

I don't remember.

3:32

That's all lost to time.

3:34

But anyway, at some point, I think his mother had died now.

3:40

I can't remember the timing of all of that either.

3:43

Okay.

3:44

But I ended up in Palm Beach and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches or whatever

3:50

he was doing because they had laid it all out over the house and various things and

3:53

I think he'd asked for my opinion.

3:55

That's my memory of this.

3:58

It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach because Ted had a golf match or

4:02

something.

4:03

There was a reason I was in Palm Beach.

4:04

It wasn't so leaf.

4:06

I don't know.

4:07

Maybe that's not true either.

4:08

I don't know.

4:09

Okay.

4:10

There's a, you know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there.

4:13

I don't know if that's part of that time or not or Ted went there and left me.

4:16

I don't know.

4:17

Something.

4:18

Anyway, I was there.

4:21

No.

4:22

That's not how that went either.

4:23

No.

4:24

Anyway, at some point in that time I saw all the swatches at some point in 2005 I think

4:30

that was and then I believe, I don't remember, I think I got a phone call actually.

4:37

I wasn't in Palm Beach.

4:38

I think I got a phone call that there was a police at his house or something.

4:45

Would you have gotten a phone call from him or you think you were just told by somebody

4:48

that knew that it happened or don't you remember?

4:52

Definitely not him.

4:53

Okay.

4:54

I think it would have been the housemate.

4:55

So when that happens, whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you know that Mr. Epstein

5:01

is being investigated for?

5:03

I didn't even know what, I didn't even understand.

5:06

I didn't have a context for that.

5:08

It was like, I didn't even know, I didn't know, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I'm

5:15

not sure even what I thought.

5:16

I was like, that's weird.

5:17

After you find out about it, what happens with your relationship with him?

5:21

I asked him.

5:22

I asked him what was going on.

5:23

And he said, not to worry, nothing, nothing, take care, don't worry about it, I don't

5:30

know if I will.

5:31

And then it went quiet.

5:32

I didn't, he didn't say, he didn't share, I wasn't part of it at all.

5:37

I was off with Ted and I really just...

5:40

Did he tell you, well, why don't we come back to more specifics around that time period

5:45

in a few minutes?

5:46

I want to just finish this opening part.

5:49

So that case goes on, ultimately it ends.

5:58

What was your relationship like with him during that case?

6:01

When he goes, you know, he asked, he told me, he said, listen, I'm going to jail.

6:07

And he goes, I'd like you to stay on board to manage the properties, the animals, this

6:15

and that, and just stay put and I'll continue to pay you in case there's any emergency.

6:21

I don't trust anyone.

6:22

And I was like, okay.

6:25

Will Newsy continue to pay you?

6:27

Had he...

6:28

He'd never stop paying me.

6:29

He'd never stop paying you.

6:30

So even when your relationship changes, you're getting, does the amount increase from the

6:33

25,000 or so a year from the beginning?

6:36

Like, well, how much are you getting paid yearly?

6:38

I think it ended at the time, well, we had different payment structures and I'm happy

6:42

to explain how that works.

6:43

But I think salary wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a quarter of a million a year.

6:48

How much?

6:49

Quarter of a million, 250,000.

6:51

And when did it end?

6:53

When was that that it stopped?

6:56

2008 or 2009.

6:58

So when did he come out of jail?

7:00

Whenever he came out of jail.

7:03

So and over the years, it increased from what you said was you thought about 25,000 to 250,000.

7:10

So that's between like early 90s until 2009 or 10, whatever he stopped, is that right?

7:16

Yes, yes.

7:17

And how were you paid?

7:18

W-2.

7:19

W-2 from what company?

7:23

He just moved me around, I went to this company there, I didn't care.

7:31

And I didn't care and I didn't understand any rhyme or reason, it doesn't matter, whatever.

7:37

So when he's going to go to jail, he says, can you stay around and manage everything?

7:41

Yeah.

7:42

And do you do that?

7:43

I do.

7:44

Okay.

7:45

And then we'll come back to that.

7:46

We'll not manage everything, no.

7:47

I mean, there are other people at this point.

7:49

My specific role then was very, very diminished.

7:52

I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions that were storming the island

8:00

and wherever else there was going to be Paris at this point because I speak French, I'm

8:03

fluent in French.

8:04

And also my relationship with the French decorator was critical to him.

8:08

And the French component part of that aspect was really vital and so you'd have had to

8:15

find someone who was, well actually and the Spanish, trilingual, you would have had to

8:19

find someone who was trilingual and that he trusted to not steal from him.

8:31

So when he gets out of jail between that time, 2009 or 10 and 2019, what's your relationship

8:40

like with Mr. Epstein?

8:43

Almost non-existent.

8:44

Why?

8:45

I had just moved on and I just didn't want to have anything to, I didn't want the drama.

8:51

I didn't want to be associated with...

8:56

So do you recall, when you say almost non-existent, does that mean some phone calls, some visits,

9:03

some trips?

9:04

I don't think there were any trips, I don't think so.

9:12

Where were you living during that time period or was it between 2009, 10 and 2019?

9:19

I was back in New York.

9:24

So you had no, so you had phone calls with him on occasion?

9:29

Yes, well I certainly did whenever there was any legal drama or any serious press intention

9:35

I always called him to try and find out what was going on and I did email him at that time

9:40

for those types of details, I was like what do I do, I mean I was like...

9:47

And then when he's charged in New York, federally, how did you learn about that case?

9:52

In the press.

9:54

And had you, as far as you know, been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest?

10:00

No, I wasn't in an indictment.

10:03

No, I know that, but even as a witness or asking you if you would give documents or materials?

10:08

I had never, up until when my lawyers said that, I don't even know, I had no knowledge

10:19

of them being interested in me, honestly, I don't, I want to say until he had died.

10:26

Now I know that my lawyers were in touch with Southern District of New York at some point

10:31

after his arrest, I'm pretty sure that had to have happened, right?

10:35

But my understanding is that they had not shown any interest, I know my lawyers went

10:40

to see them once, I believe, and...

10:44

Went to see him, meaning Mr. Upstein?

10:45

No, them, the Southern District of New York, sorry.

10:49

And that they had been in regular, in touch with him, and...

10:54

But now you're talking about after Mr. Upstein died, or are you talking about before he died?

10:59

I think...

11:01

If you can remember.

11:03

It's easily verifiable.

11:05

My memory is that they were in touch with him when he was arrested, I don't know if

11:13

anything happened until after his death, then after that.

11:17

I don't think they saw them, met with them, Southern District of New York I'm talking

11:20

about now, until after he died.

11:23

I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them, and that my lawyers believed

11:29

that they had been told that there was no interest in me.

11:33

And were absolutely stunned when I was arrested.

11:38

Maybe stunned is too big a word, but surprised, I certainly was.

11:41

Okay, so that was a long description of what was a very long life, and that was very helpful.

11:52

So I want to go back and talk more specifically now about particular areas, and that was a

11:59

very helpful kind of foundation for us.

12:02

The first thing I want to talk about, you talked about earlier on about Mr. Upstein's

12:09

financial success.

12:13

Do you know how he, when you first meet him at some point, you say, I got this place for

12:18

you to rent, you can't afford it, and he laughs at you and says, yes I can.

12:23

What did you learn about his wealth and how he accumulated his money?

12:28

I can tell you what he told me.

12:31

So I know that he was hired from working at a private school whose name eludes me at this

12:38

point, Dalton.

12:39

He was working at Dalton, he was a math teacher, and he met, I think it was Ace, I'm not sure,

12:51

he met someone from Bayer who hired him because he was very good at math.

12:55

And I believe that he then worked on creating a trading of, he came up with some new type

13:18

of trading system, not a system so much, but as a vehicle, a trading vehicle that I'm

13:25

just escaping right now.

13:26

And this is why he was working at Bayer's?

13:29

At Bastan's, yes.

13:31

And was this before you met him?

13:34

Yes.

13:35

So this is what he told you?

13:36

Yes.

13:36

And what you learned?

13:37

Yes, this is what he told me himself.

13:39

And so, and then eventually he starts a financial firm?

13:44

Do you know that to be true or no?

13:46

J. Epstein and Company, you ever heard of that at all?

13:49

Yeah, yes.

13:49

So, hang on a minute.

13:50

So I, this I did not know, but this I had subsequently learned is that he had some

13:57

problem or some issue at Bastan's and there was some disagreement.

14:04

He wasn't fired because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with Jimmy,

14:09

at least by the time I met him, but they were working with him and he ran, he had money at

14:18

Bastan's and his money, his client's money, I'll come to that, but he started, he told

14:25

me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money.

14:35

So if somebody, I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't think

14:46

of anything, I've been with, not very, I'll give it to you.

14:49

So let's say you have El Chapo, I don't know where he comes from, but anyway, we've got El

14:54

Chapo and El Chapo's laundering money or he's working with the Sinaloa cartel and he steals

15:01

money from the Sinaloa cartel and he moves it to wherever.

15:04

So he's got stolen money from the Sinaloa, goes to Epstein, this didn't happen, I'm just

15:11

coming up with something in my head and the Sinaloa says to Epstein, can you track down my

15:17

billion dollars that the other cartels stole from me in Epstein, we'll go and find the

15:22

billion dollars and we'll take a portion of the money that was stolen as a fee and give

15:29

back the remainder, that would be on a percentage basis.

15:31

No, but like what you just described, which I appreciate was just a hypothetical.

15:35

Please, that was completely hypothetical.

15:36

That would involve like, so two kind of drug cartels stealing from each other.

15:42

Practically speaking, he was more of a businessman, correct?

15:47

So here's how I think it started, is that he had a girlfriend, you're always to the

15:51

girls, I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me, maybe not whilst we're

15:58

here, I don't know, maybe, there's a woman, there was a woman, and she was the daughter

16:04

of a billionaire, for instance, and that billionaire, whatever his name was, had had

16:11

some money stolen and for some reason this woman introduced Jeffrey and Jeffrey, I think

16:17

that's how that business started, that's what I remember.

16:21

And is that something he told you about or something that happened while you knew him?

16:25

No, something he told me before I met him.

16:27

And so when you meet him and once you're part of his life in the early to mid 90s,

16:32

what is he doing to make money that you see?

16:36

Does he have clients?

16:37

Does he have rich clients?

16:38

Does he have famous clients?

16:39

And if he does have clients, what services is he providing them?

16:44

He does have, well, obviously there's the one very famous client that everybody talks

16:48

about, which is Les Wexner, and that was a very important client to him.

16:52

And he, I think it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine, what I imagine,

16:59

what I know to be true about what he managed for us.

17:03

And there's some bits that I'll be improvising.

17:07

I want to just make you understand I was not part of Epstein's business world,

17:12

except tangentially and obviously, so what I'm talking about is either what I observed

17:19

or what I overheard or what I saw within the business, but I wasn't responsible for

17:24

any of the client's money or anything like that.

17:26

So separate.

17:27

Yeah, I understand, go ahead.

17:29

So with Les, for instance, it was really all encompassing.

17:37

It could go from the structure of the business.

17:46

So he structured or restructured the limited.

17:52

I know that.

17:54

And I'll come back to that because I also traveled with him and Les,

17:57

and I was in business meetings with them on the plane when they were there.

18:00

So I could observe and I could hear some of this.

18:03

And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly business sophisticated,

18:07

I'm sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of what was happening.

18:12

All right, so then he restructured the business.

18:15

He restructured his entire personal finances and would also

18:26

handle all of the investment strategy.

18:28

I don't know if this is 100%.

18:30

Mr. Wexner, you're saying?

18:32

Sorry, yes.

18:32

This is all Wexner I'm talking about now.

18:35

So let's say you had a billion dollars to invest.

18:40

So you would, you know, in people's investment portfolios, you'd have,

18:45

you know, some T-boards and this and that,

18:48

but Epstein's strategies would be much more sophisticated than that.

18:53

So just staying with Mr. Wexner, from what you heard or saw,

19:00

is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages?

19:05

So there would be a deal and he would be paid?

19:07

Or did you understand it to be like a flat fee?

19:09

Was he a business partner?

19:11

How did you understand him to be paid?

19:13

I think it was more a la carte.

19:14

So let's say, this is a conversation actually Epstein told me.

19:20

It illustrated for me.

19:21

Said if I saved someone five billion dollars,

19:26

he would take a flat percentage of that five billion.

19:28

He wouldn't have five billion back.

19:30

What do you say you think that?

19:32

Is that because you heard him talking about that?

19:35

It would be a combination of both.

19:36

I certainly told me that and I heard him talk to people like that.

19:40

I couldn't, sorry.

19:42

No, no, go ahead.

19:43

No.

19:46

Did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein?

19:49

So we're talking about 71st Street.

19:51

So I don't know what the business deal was.

19:54

Because again, I'm not part of his business thing.

19:57

But I think what happened would be that,

20:00

let's say, wex owed him in theoretically for his services,

20:07

a hundred million or whatever it was.

20:10

He could have traded that against the property.

20:12

But do you know that that happened?

20:15

Do you remember whether there was conversations about that?

20:17

Or are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened?

20:23

I'm not sure.

20:24

I'm not trying to be.

20:25

I just don't remember if that's something I know

20:27

or if that's something that I remember

20:28

or if it's something that I subsequently know.

20:31

I believe that to be what happened.

20:32

But I don't want to tell you that I have.

20:34

Does that make sense?

20:35

Did Mr. Wexner and Mr. Epstein,

20:38

are you aware of their falling out that they ultimately had?

20:42

I think I wasn't there.

20:47

And I don't know how it happened.

20:49

I only know what Les has said in the press.

20:52

So you only know about their, you know,

20:55

their falling out or whatever you want to call it

20:57

from what you've kind of read,

20:59

not from any firsthand knowledge.

21:01

You weren't there.

21:01

You weren't part of that.

21:02

Correct.

21:06

Do you know somebody named Stephen Hoffenberg?

21:13

Only from the press.

21:14

Okay.

21:15

And so you don't know anything about

21:17

whatever business relationship they may have had, Mr. Epstein?

21:21

Never spoke about him.

21:22

Never mentioned it.

21:23

I only learned about that, whatever that is.

21:27

I don't even know what the truth is of that story from the press.

21:32

How about Leon Black?

21:34

Oh, I did meet Leon.

21:35

I do know Leon.

21:36

When do you remember, and again,

21:38

I know we're talking about a very long time ago,

21:39

but do you remember approximately when you met him?

21:48

I could have met Leon, not really.

21:50

So I might have met him, nothing to do because

21:54

Leon Black is very good friends with other friends of mine.

21:58

I would have met him when I say socially I might have met him.

22:02

How Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I'm not sure.

22:07

But not through you, as far as you're concerned?

22:09

Not through me, as far as I know, no.

22:12

I'm sure that's not through me.

22:14

Do you know what kind of work Mr. Epstein was doing

22:17

for Mr. Black over the years?

22:20

Same as what he did for Wexner.

22:23

So we just talked about two individuals,

22:28

and again, I know we're talking about maybe a 15-year time period or even longer.

22:35

How many clients like that do Mr. Epstein have?

22:38

Well, why don't I just give you the names that I remember?

22:41

Why won't I just give you the names?

22:43

Do you want the names?

22:44

No, sure, go ahead.

22:47

Elizabeth Johnson, Johnson & Johnson.

22:50

When did, as far as you know, when did the relationship

22:53

between Ms. Johnson and Mr. Epstein start?

22:55

90s, 95, 96.

23:03

So during the time period?

23:04

Yes, we're talking 90s.

23:05

We're talking when I was there, when I was around.

23:07

How did their relationship start?

23:11

I don't know how he became that friendly boy.

23:13

He ended up managing her money.

23:17

I really had a separate life.

23:19

We really had separate lives.

23:21

Okay.

23:22

Except where they said.

23:23

But it wasn't from?

23:25

It wasn't from me.

23:25

From you?

23:26

No, it was not.

23:26

Okay.

23:27

And what's your understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for Ms. Johnson?

23:31

Same as what he did for Wexner.

23:32

And when I, and you have to understand, it went down to in tiny detail.

23:37

So I remember, this I remember, this is an actual memory,

23:40

that he would make the contracts for the maids,

23:43

for the people who worked in their homes.

23:46

So he would assist his clients at times with,

23:50

you're saying, with even small things like contractual relationships?

23:53

He said no detail was too small.

23:55

Because everything that affected how they lived and how they managed their life

24:00

was something that he felt he was, if they wanted, would be responsible for.

24:05

To make sure that the contracts, so that if you had to fire someone,

24:08

it wouldn't come back and sue you, or that sort of thing.

24:13

Okay, so Mr. Black, Mr. Werner, Ms. Johnson, who else?

24:30

There's someone named Jess Staley?

24:32

Yeah, I do know Jess.

24:33

Who's that?

24:33

He was at Morgan Stanley and at Barclays.

24:37

What, do you know whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship?

24:42

Well, not a, not a physical one.

24:45

Well, I didn't suggest it.

24:47

No, I'm saying a relationship in the broadest sense of the word.

24:50

Business, personal, both?

24:52

Yes, both.

24:53

Okay, and do you know when they met?

25:03

I, no, I don't know when they met.

25:06

But you can time it.

25:08

Oh, I don't know that you can.

25:09

No, I don't know.

25:10

So, but what was the nature of their relationship as far as you know?

25:13

I think they were friends and I think that they were business partners.

25:16

Well, partners, too strong a word, but they worked, they did business together.

25:20

So, did you, again, I want to stay focused on the time

25:24

when you were the most involved in his life.

25:26

So, the early 90s through early 2000s?

25:29

Beginning of the 2000s, yes.

25:31

Did, did you, so we talked about four people.

25:36

There's more.

25:37

Were there more?

25:38

Oh, yes, there were more.

25:39

There was a lady whose name I just can't, can I get my book?

25:43

Maybe I wrote them down.

25:44

Sure.

26:06

Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients.

26:09

What book are you, what is that?

26:11

I'd write some notes for the meeting.

26:12

Okay, great.

26:13

Is that right?

26:14

No, that's fine.

26:14

I just was curious what we're looking at.

26:16

Oh, okay.

26:17

Not the birthday book.

26:18

It's not the birthday book.

26:19

No, we're going to come to that, I'm sure.

26:20

All right.

26:21

I wrote down something because I tried to make,

26:24

I just want you to understand my memory is not as good as it was

26:28

because when I was in Brooklyn I was in the shoe for almost two years

26:34

and I was on suicide watch for almost two years

26:37

which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time

26:41

and it's, it really did affect my ability to.

26:45

Understand.

26:46

Okay.

26:47

So, you've taken some notes.

26:49

I just made some names in advance of it.

26:52

And you're happy to look at them.

26:53

No, go ahead.

26:55

Okay, well, funny you say.

26:57

First two names, one is Wexner, two is Staley, three is Leon Black.

27:01

Okay.

27:03

Glenn Dubin was a client.

27:04

Who's that?

27:05

Eva Dubin's husband.

27:07

Okay.

27:08

What was their, I mean, if you can, do you know when,

27:12

about when that relationship started?

27:14

Well, it wouldn't have been before they got married for sure.

27:17

So, you're going to start, you're going to date that from wherever that was.

27:22

And then Epstein was heavily involved with Highbridge Capital

27:28

and the financing or selling of Highbridge to JP Morgan.

27:32

Okay.

27:35

Go ahead.

27:36

There's a Dubin.

27:37

Yeah.

27:40

Okay, you're only looking for clients.

27:41

So, all right, there's a woman, well, he, there's a woman in Ohio.

27:53

I just can't think of her name, but it will, I tried to remember it yesterday and I can't.

27:58

So, this is a good thing, like, you know, as you think of things, write it down.

28:02

And if they have any other names, they'll ask you, but don't force it out.

28:06

So, you'll have time to think about this, especially today, this afternoon, overnight,

28:10

because we'll probably meet tomorrow.

28:11

But you can find them.

28:12

I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female.

28:15

So, there's a woman in Ohio who's wealthy.

28:17

Well, you can identify her yourself because she had the largest Klein painting.

28:23

That was huge.

28:24

So, you can find her because it'll be in the museum.

28:27

So, that's her.

28:27

So, he, that was one of Mr. Epstein's clients.

28:30

She was one of Mr. Epstein's clients as well.

28:32

Yes.

28:32

Okay. Who else?

28:36

Well, I think that there was people, other people that he would, like, assist.

28:43

I know that he helped Lynn Forrester who became Linda Rothschild.

28:47

She'll deny it, and she has.

28:51

And when you say help, the same help in business or what will help?

28:57

I have no idea what he did for her.

28:58

I know he helped her financially.

29:00

Her husband was the controller of New York.

29:03

So, but I don't, again, I'm not inside his business, but he would have, his, his,

29:09

this notion that he blackmailed men, we don't really have to go there,

29:13

that he wasn't a businessman and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or whatever.

29:17

I don't believe that to be true.

29:18

Why?

29:20

Sorry?

29:20

Why do you, so you say you don't believe it to be true, but show me why you think that.

29:24

I know you've been talking about it, that he was very, he was very conscientious.

29:28

He was very good at math.

29:29

He was, paid a lot of attention to his clients, but, but yes, you're right.

29:33

There's allegations of blackmail or also that, that there was some level of fraud

29:38

involved in what he did and you don't believe it.

29:40

Why do you, why do you say that?

29:41

Well, I, let me rephrase that.

29:44

If there was fraud, I never saw it.

29:47

What I saw or what I felt when I, his, I ran that office.

29:51

I mean, ran, I didn't, I was responsible for the staff.

29:54

People worked, there were lawyers, there were accountants.

29:59

I never heard him, I never, I never felt anything.

30:09

Did you ever see him blackmail a client?

30:13

No.

30:13

Did you ever see him blackmail a friend or an acquaintance?

30:17

No.

30:18

Well, so I think when folks talk about blackmail and we can talk about, sorry about that.

30:24

We can talk about that now.

30:27

There are a lot of allegations about him, which we should talk about and we can do that now,

30:33

and the fact that he abused young women.

30:36

Yes.

30:37

Full stop, okay, which means the way that I'm defining abuse,

30:42

as has been widely reported, is that he would cause young women in high school to be recruited

30:50

to come to his house and give him massages and as part of that, he would sexually abuse them.

31:00

So I want to talk about that, but as it relates to blackmail,

31:05

the question is whether you're aware of any time that any of the individuals we're talking about

31:11

and we'll talk about others, receive massages from women who are under 18

31:19

or may have been under 18 and that whether there was any sexual assaults or sexual contact between

31:26

any of these people and those masseuses, which would have allowed them, Mr. Epstein, potentially

31:33

to blackmail them and say, you have to continue to work with me or you have to give me money

31:37

or else I'm going to tell the world that you did this.

31:43

Right, I think this is a really good place to start with how this story began.

31:49

Okay.

31:51

So even, let's assume that that premise is correct, that he was doing that and he was

31:59

going to tell everybody, going to say, oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with an

32:04

underage girl. If you don't have video or photographic evidence, I'm not sure that even

32:13

the FBI would take that, well, maybe today, but certainly not back then, would take that seriously.

32:19

So you have to have something to say, hey, you know, look, I've got this video of you doing

32:25

terrible things and you need to. So I built those houses, many of them. I decorated those houses.

32:35

I put the electricians in for the wiring. I never wired nor saw a single house that had any type

32:46

of inappropriate, let's say video surveillance. And I'll define that for you.

32:53

Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom, in a bedroom, in any private area of a home.

33:00

In a room where there were massages given.

33:03

Inappropriate. I would say I would define appropriate

33:09

surveillance to be the front door of a house or potentially, as in 71st Street, the

33:18

physical plant. Anywhere else would be grotesque.

33:23

So I just want to come back to, I know, I'm just hopefully saying the obvious,

33:28

but when you say the houses, you're talking about his New York brownstone. You're talking

33:36

about the island in the Caribbean. You're talking about the residence in Palm Beach.

33:44

And you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico. Anywhere else?

33:48

Paris.

33:48

And in Paris.

33:49

And the plane, I saw some ridiculous thing with the plane that was about my door.

33:55

I didn't have any electrician on the plane.

33:57

So unequivocally, from what you know, and you only know what you know.

34:01

I only know what I know.

34:02

But from what you know, you do not believe a camera exists or a video camera or a camera

34:09

that takes pictures inside any of his residences.

34:16

Correct.

34:16

So even the appropriate cameras that you just talked about, which would be kind of

34:20

exterior security cameras, did you know whether there was any cameras that you're aware of

34:26

inside any of the locations?

34:29

Never. With one exception.

34:30

Okay. What's the exception?

34:32

The exception is Palm Beach.

34:34

And the reason, so in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen.

34:39

He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase, his briefcase.

34:44

And he called in the Palm Beach police.

34:51

And they, the Palm Beach police installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.

34:59

Where was that? Do you remember?

35:00

At his desk in, so the house on the ground floor was, he had a desk sort of in a corner.

35:12

There was that camera.

35:12

I think there was another camera.

35:14

I think there were two or maybe three cameras.

35:16

I believe only on the ground floor, wherever he may have had,

35:19

maybe he had another office in the cabana.

35:22

There may have been a camera there.

35:23

When was this?

35:25

I'm not looking for an exact date, but what time period are you thinking about

35:28

2003. I think I can date it for you precisely, actually.

35:32

2003, I'm pretty firm on that date.

35:35

And I can be firm because John Alessi, the butler, was fired in the end of 2002 and he was the thief.

35:46

So aside from law enforcement installing a camera to try to catch

35:51

somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you're not aware of any cameras

35:57

at the island? No? Sorry, just so we record it.

36:04

Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

36:06

That's okay. You were nodding your head no.

36:09

What about...

36:10

No cameras anywhere outside of possibly things that I would consider myself, I would consider normal.

36:17

So the garage gate, something like that, a front door.

36:21

Outside, like security cameras?

36:23

Security cameras. And there were cameras inside in the 71st Street that did the plant,

36:29

the physical plant, because it was a commercial building.

36:32

So you had the whole, that's a real thing, that's a commercial building.

36:35

And there were cameras, there was one camera on the front door internal,

36:39

from the internal that did the front door, as I recall.

36:42

But there were no other cameras inside the house.

36:46

Did you ever, how about photographs?

36:49

Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein or anybody around him take pictures of anybody

36:57

in compromising positions with women or with anybody?

37:03

Did you ever hear, when you were present for conversations Mr. Epstein was having

37:09

or others were having, anybody accuse him of blackmailing them or of trying to extort them

37:18

because of something Mr. Epstein knew?

37:20

No.

37:23

There have been, and you, in the discovery you got in the New York case, okay?

37:32

Yes.

37:33

And in the civil cases that you've been part of associated with Mr. Epstein,

37:41

have you ever been given or ever been told that video exists like what we're talking about

37:48

or photos were taken that were compromising?

37:52

So in both of those I received no pictures or anything from the civil case.

37:58

But in the criminal case I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that.

38:05

I did get those.

38:06

I also saw binders, photographs of women,

38:13

in determined, I never saw anything, I don't know how old some of these women were.

38:18

There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach that photographs of them.

38:26

In those photographs, were the victims that were photographed, were there any of the people you've

38:34

talked about, were there men with the victims or were they just photographs of the victims?

38:39

There was no men with these pictures.

38:43

There was no client of his with those pictures.

38:46

They would be standalone, for want of a better word, like modeling shots.

38:58

Pictures that Epstein had with the girls but not Epstein with the clients and the girls?

39:02

Correct.

39:03

Did you, I understand you said you got those in the discovery.

39:12

Did you know those pictures like that existed?

39:15

So right now I'm talking about photographs of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein

39:23

had on his computer or wherever he had them.

39:26

Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery?

39:30

Some of them, absolutely, because they were in his house.

39:33

Some of these pictures were on his credenza or whatever.

39:38

Some pictures I'd simply never seen before.

39:45

I'd never seen some of them.

39:47

Some of them I had, some of them I hadn't.

39:51

So you're right and I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful

39:59

in a compromising position would be good blackmail.

40:05

Putting aside what you've said about the fact that you don't know of any existence of those,

40:12

did you observe over the years the folks we're talking about or others,

40:18

which we can talk about, getting massages from young women?

40:21

Um, so I just, I think it's really helpful to understand a few things that has been

40:29

missed in this whole Michigan.

40:34

That's a technical term.

40:36

I'll look it up later.

40:38

Go ahead.

40:39

I thought about this obviously a lot and I've given it some, so this is the benefit of,

40:48

some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think.

40:51

So just for clarity's sake.

40:55

I think, I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein

40:59

did a lot of, not all, but some of what he's accused of and I'm not here to defend him in

41:05

any respect whatsoever.

41:06

I don't want to and I don't think he requires nor deserves any type of protection or

41:12

for me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do.

41:16

So there's that.

41:19

However, the man I met and the man he became, I believe that there is a progression.

41:32

And I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became.

41:38

I believe he became that man over a period of time.

41:41

Now we can discuss anything you want and I'll tell you everything I know.

41:46

But I think somebody who has an interest, however you define it, in underage people

41:58

is obviously someone who is unwell.

42:01

But I don't think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he's accused of.

42:07

I think this is something that you develop or you progress to, I think.

42:16

Glenn, before you get into all that, let's answer the top line question and then get

42:21

into it.

42:21

Okay, the top line question is...

42:23

Did you ever see any of these people with underage...

42:26

No, no.

42:27

So the reason I'm saying that is not to avoid that question, but it's because by the time

42:32

when you're talking in the 90s, I don't think he was there.

42:39

That description, I think that this, what you're talking about is a later version.

42:44

Is that...?

42:45

No, I understand that.

42:46

And I do want to talk, I'm not...

42:47

So it's just, I think you need to separate the periods of time because one of the things

42:53

that was definitely missing in my trial and definitely missing from the narrative is this

42:58

notion that everything happened and he was always a bit...

43:01

No, I don't believe that to be true.

43:03

So that's fine and I do want to talk about that.

43:06

I'm not pushing that away.

43:09

I'm just putting it aside for a moment.

43:12

What Mr. Epstein did and frankly what you did or are accused of doing is one thing

43:19

that we'll talk about, but right now what I want to understand is whether one of the

43:26

ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his clients or took care of them or some would say blackmailed

43:33

them was by encouraging them to interact with women underage or not.

43:41

So I think in the 90s he may have encouraged them, but these were people who were in their

43:46

20s or 30s.

43:49

So he would have a masseuse, right, and he did, male and female by the way in the 90s,

43:54

that's never been discussed, both in yoga and everything, there were men as well as women.

43:58

And so if he would travel, and I can show them to you, I highlighted them on the

44:03

flight record so you could see that there really were men that were also there.

44:07

He would say would you like to do yoga with Tito or would you like a massage with this one,

44:12

but they would be in their late 20s and professional masseuses.

44:18

So I think there's a distinction.

44:20

And I want to talk about actual individuals here, and I understand the distinction between

44:24

somebody who's an adult and someone who's underage, but even with somebody who's an

44:29

adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, whether it's a client or

44:37

somebody else?

44:38

I certainly witnessed him.

44:40

So if you were staying with him and you had a massage, he would often travel with a masseuse.

44:46

He would say hey, would you like a massage?

44:47

And he did do that, yes.

44:49

But would you or him or anybody else follow up with a masseuse afterwards to find out if

44:55

there was any inappropriate sexual concept?

44:57

I never did, no.

44:59

And coming back to the blackmail issue, there's nothing wrong with getting a massage.

45:02

Of course not, especially if somebody's obviously an adult and a masseuse.

45:08

I'm not quibbling with that.

45:10

My question is that there's a lot of accusations that one of the way Mr. Maxwell, I'm sorry,

45:15

Mr. Epstein was successful was through this idea of blackmail.

45:19

I never.

45:20

Yes, young women is a crime, children is a crime, but even women over the age of 18,

45:28

if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or whomever to get massages and have inappropriate sexual

45:35

contact with a masseuse, that's a separate issue, maybe slightly nuanced.

45:41

But did you ever know him to do that?

45:44

I never did, absolutely, myself.

45:46

I never heard him ask someone.

45:49

I never heard that.

45:50

I never, no one in the entire time I was with him or friends with him or had anyone,

45:54

no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened

46:00

or was upset by it.

46:01

I never saw, I never saw ever any of that.

46:05

When you say no one ever reports to me, meaning like the masseuses or any of the house staff.

46:10

Or the clients.

46:11

Or the clients themselves.

46:13

Never.

46:21

So let's again, I want to stay and coming back now to what you were talking about a

46:26

moment ago with Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or getting worse.

46:31

Just staying within the 90s, what role did you have or what did you observe?

46:38

Which are two different issues, but both important with respect to recruiting masseuses

46:44

to come to either I guess Palm Beach or to travel or eventually New Mexico.

46:51

What role did you have in that?

46:52

He asked me to find masseuses for him.

46:54

Say it again?

46:55

He asked me if I could find him masseuses.

46:59

Like as part of, like you said you were his general manager,

47:00

so as part of all your duties that was one of them.

47:02

And I did do that.

47:04

So the first person I believe that I introduced him to as a masseuse was somebody called S***.

47:12

She was, I don't know, mid-late 20s, professional masseuse.

47:18

Was this something that happened early on in your relationship or,

47:21

and again I know we're talking about the 90s,

47:23

but are we talking about early 90s or is this later on?

47:26

So in terms of massage I am a, I have a lot of injuries.

47:33

I do a lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious accidents

47:41

and walk without any lameness because of physical therapy and massage.

47:49

That to me is a very, it's medicinal for me.

47:56

So Epstein, whatever his massage situation or whatever, he loved massage

48:03

and if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur I introduced them.

48:08

And he, because I got them and he asked me if I did and I said yes.

48:11

And that's, I'm pretty sure that would have, well I can't remember,

48:17

93, 92 early from the beginning.

48:20

So, so go ahead.

48:23

So then what happens over the next, you know, like there's been,

48:28

there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I guess testimony as well,

48:31

but also public reporting about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort

48:38

that you were a part of and that he was a part of and others

48:41

to try to find more and more masseuses.

48:43

What, is that, is that true and what role did you have in that?

48:47

Um, that is partially true.

48:51

So it is true that I found masseuses and he became more insistent.

49:00

He liked new all the time.

49:02

He got bored.

49:03

So he would be bored with that masseuse and he would say find me a new masseuse.

49:08

I am the entire opposite.

49:10

If I find someone that I like, I stay with them.

49:12

I'm like, I don't want new.

49:14

He would drive for new.

49:15

So that is true.

49:17

And in my effort to find them, I would go to massage spas,

49:22

like legitimate spas.

49:24

We're not talking, you know, funky ones that people have.

49:28

So, um, and I, if I got a massage from somebody in a spa that was,

49:34

I liked, I liked, I asked them if they would do home visits.

49:37

If they said yes, I would ask them to come to the house

49:41

and he would see if he liked them or not.

49:42

But these were people who worked in spas.

49:45

I never ever checked their age and I never checked their credentials.

49:48

I never asked for a certificate.

49:50

What, um-

49:51

But just to be clear, you never thought anybody was under-

49:53

I never crossed, I never.

49:55

No, that was never my, that was never a drive.

49:58

What, um, what did you know at the time about him, Mr. Epstein,

50:06

requiring masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to

50:13

either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein

50:15

or to be there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that.

50:19

And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year period or whatever, 10-year period.

50:23

So I appreciate that's a very broad question.

50:25

So answer it in a way that, you know, addresses what you've been charged with doing

50:29

but also what's been said about you.

50:31

Okay, so I don't, the 90s, I don't think that I ever thought that never would cross my mind.

50:37

Um, I'm not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all until, uh,

50:43

his arrest and those papers came out.

50:45

But I believe the, the, um, subject of the question that you're asking me,

50:52

I believe started in the 2000s.

50:56

Till, in the 2000 time period?

50:58

Yes, 2000.

50:59

Why do you, why do you think, like what in your mind makes you

51:02

think that that's the time that it started?

51:04

Um, I think because in, uh, December of 2001, he met **** and I think, uh, **** was, um,

51:18

responsible for that in its entirety and the reason I believe that.

51:26

So this, she, she was a, um, self-confessed, uh, having been, uh, sexually abused as a young girl

51:37

and was trained, her words, I'm quoting now, not mine, um, in all the arts of whatever that is,

51:47

a sex program by, uh, a man called Ron Appinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14,

51:58

I believe, or 15, I don't know, and in her book describes him training her to be what every man

52:06

wants in all its manners, fellatio and everything else.

52:13

I believe that then what happened was that he met her and she came as a masseuse to his house

52:21

in December of 2001 is when I think it started.

52:27

Now what their relationship was on what happened with them in that early period of time,

52:33

I cannot say, what I can say is that he liked her and she started to travel with him.

52:42

I believe, I know then what happened was that she, when she first started to see him,

52:49

um, or first came into his orbit as his masseuse or whatever, she was, uh, engaged to be married

52:56

and wearing an engagement ring and was living with her fiance. Um, she broke up after a few months,

53:04

uh, with her fiance and took up with the local drug dealer. So let's say after

53:12

four or five months of, in the time period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say, we're now

53:19

May, June of 2002 or so, 2002, whenever she hits the, whatever that is, that's 2000,

53:29

I think it's 2000, I'm sorry, I think it's when she met him, December of 2000.

53:34

So then you go through, I don't remember, you'll have to look.

53:40

I'm not holding you to the exact date.

53:42

No, I mean, I'm just trying to, I'm getting the, so then I think, um, so she,

53:46

she takes up with the local drug dealer and she becomes

53:52

druggy, druggy, like we know how druggy, I live with a lot in Tallahassee, they become

54:02

even more unreliable than normal. And at some point she's now working somewhere else.

54:08

He stops seeing her because he doesn't like people who do drugs. And I think that not seeing

54:15

her lasted five or six months and in that period of time she got arrested for theft

54:22

and she had a warrant out for her arrest. Now this I've pieced together because this piece

54:28

I didn't know. She then called Epstein to have help avoiding the warrant for her arrest

54:39

and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage therapy license. This is the bit that I guess,

54:50

this is the bit that I extrapolated. In the period of time from when she came back to when she left,

54:56

he asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever, whatever she was doing. And she brought

55:05

the first replacement for her that would have been one of the accusers in my case I think,

55:13

would have been and that, and then everyone who came subsequent,

55:20

simultaneously, if she wasn't the first, I don't know, everyone, every single person who came to

55:26

his house came through and her boyfriend Tony and then whoever else underneath her. And that is how

55:34

it started. So before her, Tony Figueroa, before her, so now going back into the 90s, you don't

55:45

believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing masseuses? Underage. Or overage. I mean I think, well I'm

55:59

using abuse in the broadest sense of word because I'm assuming that you said that you have no idea

56:05

over the years. You always assumed the masseuses were overage, right? So when I'm talking about

56:10

abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse comes in to give a massage and is told to take

56:15

off their clothes, told they're not going to get paid if they don't keep their clothes, basically

56:19

suggests that they had to watch him masturbate. Like the things that have been publicly said about

56:23

what he did, for now I'm not distinguishing between adults or young or underage women for that.

56:29

I'm going to think that that would have been a habit. Okay. I'm going to say that the massage

56:34

game was a habit. What does that mean? That means that I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start

56:43

having relations with masseuses in 2002. Okay. I am sure he must have had relations with masseuses,

56:49

who knows when. But you're saying as far as you, I use the word abuse, you're saying that as far as

56:55

you sit here today, you would describe that more as consensual, meaning the masseuse did those,

57:03

did this willingly. I saw him with lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse

57:10

ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on my observation,

57:18

I don't think that if you are being raped as now he's like this prolific, I just

57:26

can't imagine why you would return. It's not what you observed at the time.

57:29

Not what I observed at the time. I want to, we're going to spend a little,

57:34

we're going to spend more time on this issue because I think it's important. But just going

57:41

back to kind of the question that I started with in this area, which is that it ties into the

57:47

blackmail issue. So we talked about people that were his clients and you've mentioned

57:56

President Clinton and then early on. Oh, I never said he was a client.

57:59

I did not say he was a client. I'm saying you talk about his clients.

58:02

Oh, okay. Right.

58:02

And then put his clients off the side. And then you mentioned some other people.

58:05

You mentioned President Clinton. You mentioned President Trump early on. Who were other

58:12

famous slash politicians? Who were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during

58:19

that time period? So the early 90s. The 90s. Should we just?

58:23

Yes. Okay. Congressman McMillan.

58:25

Say it again. McMillan.

58:27

Okay.

58:28

Um, Henry Rizovsky, who was the provost of Harvard.

58:33

Hang on, can I? Sure. You're looking at your notes.

58:38

Um, Joe Pagano, Jerry Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson,

58:49

I don't know if in the 90s, Tom Pritzker, Ace, Jimmy Kane, Lou Ranieri. I mean, there were.

58:56

What about the royal family? No, we didn't know them in the 90s.

59:00

What about the, the, um, what about Prince Andrew?

59:03

Didn't know him in the 90s. Um, Wendy.

59:06

Oh well. Is that right?

59:09

I wasn't there. I did not know.

59:14

So I don't want you to worry about exact dates. You're not positive about that, but

59:19

you don't have a specific recollection of that being in the 90s.

59:21

No. Okay.

59:23

I can date it for you, I think. But I can't give you the-

59:27

That's okay. I think.

59:27

That's fine. Um, so with respect to just, and we'll take a break in a minute to get some

59:32

food. Um, but just with respect to Mr. Um, with respect to the individuals you just talked about.

59:39

So again, focus on the 90s. And so the people that I'm talking about right now, and we might

59:43

add some names later. So we're talking about the clients that he worked with, which you've

59:48

mentioned several of, and I know that that wasn't exhaustive, but you've mentioned several of them.

59:52

And then the kind of what I called famous friends, but the prominent individuals that

59:58

were in his life in the 90s. Um, did, did, does any stick out in your mind as having received

1:00:05

massages? All of them?

1:00:07

Henry Rizoski received a massage.

1:00:09

And then why do you, why does that stick out in your memory?

1:00:12

Because, um, I saw him in a bathrobe at 71st Street and he had received a massage, he told me.

1:00:20

And do you know whether that, whether there was any, um, whether the masseuse was naked

1:00:24

during that massage? I wouldn't have any idea.

1:00:26

Do you know whether he... I doubt it, he was like in his 80s.

1:00:29

I doubt it, he was like in his 80s. Okay, so, but do you know, notwithstanding

1:00:33

his age... Oh, Minsky, how, Minsky.

1:00:35

Say that again? Minsky was another person.

1:00:38

Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton ever received a massage?

1:00:41

I don't believe he did. And what makes you say you don't believe he did?

1:00:45

Well, because I don't, so that's a good question.

1:00:50

Uh, the time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the only times, I believe.

1:00:56

Well, obviously they traveled.

1:00:59

There was that, you know, they went on the plane 26 times or whatever.

1:01:02

That would be one journey. So they spent time on the plane together

1:01:05

and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the plane.

1:01:09

So that would have been the only time that I think that President Clinton

1:01:12

could have even received a massage and he didn't, because I was there.

1:01:16

And you mentioned that early, in the very beginning of the conversation,

1:01:21

you mentioned President Trump in the early 90s.

1:01:23

What did you observe as far as President Trump

1:01:27

and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?

1:01:31

Well, I just want to say for my relationship with President Trump,

1:01:36

relationship's a big word, but I just want to say that I met him,

1:01:39

or I believe I may have, because of my father in the 90s.

1:01:42

So my father liked him very much and he really liked his wife as well,

1:01:49

because they were both Czechoslovakians.

1:01:50

And as far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me.

1:01:57

And I just want to say that I admire his extraordinary achievement

1:02:05

in becoming the president now and I like him and I've always liked him.

1:02:10

So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship with him.

1:02:13

What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him?

1:02:16

I don't know how they met and I don't know how they became friends.

1:02:19

I certainly saw them together and I remember

1:02:22

the few times I observed them together that they were friendly.

1:02:26

Was that in social settings or was that in private settings?

1:02:29

I believe I only ever saw them in social settings.

1:02:32

I don't recall any private settings.

1:02:34

Did you ever, have you ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?

1:02:38

I have.

1:02:39

In what time period are you thinking about when you say yes?

1:02:43

I don't remember when the president purchased Mar-a-Lago.

1:02:47

So from whenever it turned into a club, I went there and I loved going there.

1:02:56

Did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein?

1:02:58

Mostly alone.

1:02:59

Many times I went there, it was for an event, maybe once or twice.

1:03:03

And do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever went there?

1:03:06

I believe he did, but again, we really were, he didn't take me with him all the time.

1:03:18

So he would go and, he never, I never, well he did from time to time,

1:03:26

but he would go alone.

1:03:27

I think he would maybe go himself to the spa.

1:03:29

I certainly did.

1:03:30

Did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage?

1:03:35

Never.

1:03:37

Did you ever observe, you said that you,

1:03:41

you were, I mean, have you seen the, there's photographs,

1:03:45

public photographs of Mr. Epstein and President Trump together?

1:03:50

Yes.

1:03:51

And there's photographs of, I think you're in some of the photographs as well.

1:03:55

Those all appear to be social settings.

1:03:59

That's my memory, if there were social settings.

1:04:00

I don't know, Epstein's, if he had, whatever the nature of the president's friendship,

1:04:09

if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein,

1:04:12

I was never witness.

1:04:13

I think they were friendly, like people are in social settings.

1:04:16

I don't, I don't think they were close friends or,

1:04:21

I certainly never witnessed the president in any of,

1:04:26

I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance.

1:04:29

I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting.

1:04:33

I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way.

1:04:37

The president was never inappropriate with anybody.

1:04:41

In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects.

1:04:45

When's the last time you think you saw in person President Trump?

1:04:54

It's been a long time, probably not, sometime in the beginning,

1:05:01

mid-2000s maybe, and it would only have been a social setting, as far as I recall.

1:05:07

And did you ever hear Mr. Epstein, or anybody, say that President Trump had done anything

1:05:15

inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world?

1:05:18

Absolutely never, in any context.

1:05:25

Do you know whether masseuses from Mar-a-Lago Spa ended up giving massages to,

1:05:32

private massages to Mr. Epstein?

1:05:36

I'm not asking what you may have read,

1:05:37

but at the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know whether that's true?

1:05:43

I don't recall.

1:05:44

Is it possible?

1:05:45

Yes, but I don't remember that.

1:05:49

So I don't recall that, but it's possible.

1:05:52

Do you have recollection of you ever recruiting a masseuse from

1:05:56

Mar-a-Lago Spa to go give a private massage to Mr. Epstein?

1:06:00

I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I remember.

1:06:05

I can't ever recollect doing that.

1:06:09

Okay, so what I think we should do now, it's about 12.15, we'll take a break,

1:06:15

and we will come back in a little bit.

1:06:18

Okay.

0:00

Good afternoon, we are continuing the recorded proper interview of Ms. Maxwell.

0:06

The time is 1259 Thursday, July 24th.

0:10

Okay, so just continuing with talking about Ms. Maxwell, still focused on the 90s time

0:24

period with understanding that could spill over in the early 2000s, but still that part

0:28

of your life with Mr. Epstein.

0:33

There's been public reporting about conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little St. James.

0:44

Yes.

0:45

So can you talk about the frequency with which you went there and address some of those,

0:57

some of the reporting namely around young masseuses or young women who would be present

1:03

and what you observed relating to them and then I'll ask questions around that.

1:09

So if I'm right, he purchased the island in 1996 and he was friendly with the owners

1:16

and originally we went to the island as guests of the owners and then I guess at some point

1:23

the owners told him they wanted to sell and he decided to purchase it.

1:30

So the island was very rustic, I loved it, it caused completely different ideas and I

1:39

would say there was none of what you were describing at that early period of time so

1:46

the frequency was often not the island because he loved it, he really, really loved it and

1:56

we would go all the time.

1:59

Mostly all the early phase was based on improvements that could be made on the island, always going

2:08

with new architects, new designers, new construction people.

2:14

I'd say the first two years, almost every trip, not everyone, but almost every trip

2:21

contained some, an individual who would be brought on board to have an opinion as to

2:28

how to, I don't want to use the word improve the island because I don't think you could

2:35

improve it but to, I can't think what the word would be, to develop it, sorry, that's

2:48

the word, develop the island, that's the word, so there were trips, constant trips with that

2:55

in mind.

2:56

And I would say now, if we're moving to the late 90s, 96, 97,

0:00

I definitely witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behaviour and a modification, if

0:09

you will, where in the past, in the early 90s, I don't remember travelling so much

0:16

with other people, whether it be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now he started to travel

0:21

with more, always a masseuse, whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or always

0:26

an instructor, there was now starting to be always an individual or a friend or whatever,

0:31

there's always a... maybe the word would be entourage, but these were always people in

0:45

their 20s, late 20s, early 30s, as my memory sees it, as I observed that time. And

0:55

he tasked me with finding local masseuses for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes,

1:07

even though I say he would always travel with an entourage, sometimes he didn't and he wanted

1:11

to have a massage locally, so I visited the spas that were local in St. Thomas and in St.

1:19

John. And if I met someone, a man or a woman actually, because it was difficult to find

1:25

somebody in St. Thomas, it's not exactly... and I did find a couple of people who would come,

1:32

so that's how they came. Because also it was a schlepp, so if you had somebody who came,

1:38

it would be... you'd have to boat ride and several hours, it wasn't just... it's not late

1:47

arriving with your massage tape and stuff, so there was that. So I did do that.

1:52

So did, over the years, males also give massages to Mr. Epstein?

1:57

Yes. I did say, I don't think... at the beginning, definitely, and I would say towards sort of,

2:04

again, late 90s, I don't remember any men. They were at the beginning, I think, and towards the

2:12

late 90s, I kind of don't think of any men, I only think of women.

2:15

Did you... you talk about entourage flying, right now we're talking about to the island,

2:23

did you observe any sexual... I was going to say misconcon, but any sex at all whatsoever on the

2:34

plane? Was there a part of the plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could

2:46

go and get a massage? Okay, so that's a good question. So there were two planes, so you had

2:52

the... there was a Gulf Stream, and that's open plan, so anything... I mean, there was a sofa that

3:01

turned into a bed, and he did sleep on that, and then... but in the Boeing, which he flew on a lot,

3:10

there was... his area could be closed off with a door, and behind that door there would be... there

3:16

was a bedroom and an office, so if that door was shut, you wouldn't see it. But do you... so if

3:23

you'd never... but you never observed Mr. Epstein engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody

3:30

with where the masseuse was not clothed on the plane? I can't say that. I might have, I definitely

3:37

might have, either both in the Gulf Stream or in the... I'm sure I did, but it's not... I can't.

3:44

That's fair. Okay. I'm absolutely sure I did. I must have, because he was so obsessed with someone

3:53

rubbing his feet, or just... when you ask me about massages, I just want to be clear. I generally...

3:58

what I think of that is somebody on a massage table, but other people might think of it as

4:04

something different. You know, you could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder. I saw

4:08

that all the time, that I did, but that's separate from being on a massage table. Again, I know what

4:14

we're talking about, a decade-long period, but during the period we're talking about, in a seven-day

4:21

week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage? In the 90s, when we're talking, he would get one

4:29

every day. I think as that time progressed, he would get one maybe twice a day. I do want to say

4:38

that there was maybe a reason that things altered, or morphed, or progressed, and it is maybe part

4:55

of the reason also that I... he and I... our relationship, or however somebody wants to call it,

5:04

altered. He started doing testosterone, and that altered his character. I believe that started in

5:19

the late 90s. I believe that the FBI has his medical records, and you may see that

5:27

on his medical records. You believe that he started taking testosterone in the 90s,

5:34

and when you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it made him get more massages,

5:39

or that was just one part of what changed about him? Well, he became more aggressive.

5:47

I think that he may be... well, now I'm just imagining that the testosterone altered his

5:56

desires, or something. Given what you've said the past couple hours about his progression or change,

6:11

let's focus on that time period, so more towards the late 90s, 96, 97, 88, when you've said that he

6:19

changed. Did you know flat out that he was having sex, or otherwise some sort of sexual

6:32

conduct with masseuses regularly? Flat out, no. I denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would,

6:40

but I think looking back now that... I did not, but I started to suspect that he was not

6:51

faithful. It seems ludicrous. Look, if he's flying from Palm Beach to

7:04

St. Thomas, or if he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to New York,

7:11

or even in Palm Beach, and there's young women putting aside whether they're under the age of

7:16

18 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple massages on Sundays, you're interacting

7:26

with the masseuses constantly. Or maybe that's not right. That's not right. Let me take back what I

7:31

just said, ignore that part. But you understand that he's getting massages every day, sometimes

7:35

multiple times a day. By the late 90s, it's all women. Presumably some of them are new,

7:43

but they're also repeat masseuses. You had to know at that point that there was something

7:50

going on beyond just he really needed to get massaged. Very fair question. There's two things.

7:56

The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s,

8:01

and she was with him all the time. I'm married as well. I'm square, and it never occurred...

8:17

Well, I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he would be having

8:24

relations. That was the person he had the most massages, yoga, and that with at that time,

8:31

in that 90s period. The second thing is that he told me he had difficulty having an erection,

8:49

and I believed him. When you said he said that, do you mean he regularly told you that?

8:55

Because when I didn't have sex with him after the first time, I asked him, was it me? And he told

9:07

me it was him. Up until this moment in my life, I'm not stupid, I'm very bright. I've had an

9:20

excellent education. I traveled all over the world. I had had boyfriends, but I had never

9:29

met or understood that somebody could be so... would lie to me about... It never occurred to me.

9:39

I didn't have a frame of context within my life experience where somebody would be so

9:46

manipulative and devious with me. Plus, I just didn't have... I was happy not to have

9:57

sex, because I have a condition that doesn't lend itself to that.

10:07

So fast forward just for a moment to the 2007-8-9 time period, and he's arrested and charged,

10:14

and there's all kinds of press around his purported contact. At that point,

10:23

did you accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make sense at that point when you were reading

10:27

about women who claimed that they had been abused, even underage? And at that point,

10:34

did you think to yourself, well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about it, or no?

10:37

First of all, I only read what was in the newspapers. I didn't have any other thing,

10:42

and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't believe it. Okay. Right. I mean, you didn't believe that the

10:51

accusations were true at the time. And sorry, I need to say, even if they were true, I believe

11:02

that he was duped, and he didn't know that they were... whatever was in the papers at that time,

11:07

whether they said that they were 17 or... I didn't... It didn't register, because along with all of

11:14

those... Well, not in 2006, but later when the more salacious and other allegations came out,

11:22

I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief that the rest was not true.

11:29

Let me ask you a question about the age of the masseuses over the years.

11:35

Um, I think in my mind, there's a difference between you knowing or not knowing that a

11:46

masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you knowing that Mr. Epstein,

11:54

you know, sexually abused the underage person, or made her strip, or something like that. Meaning,

12:00

um, and I want to understand whether you believe that nobody that came to give massages,

12:07

none of the women were under 18, or that you, you didn't focus on their age, but you,

12:16

you were more focused on whether any underage woman was abused by him.

12:25

I think, I think it's better to answer this question with corroborating evidence.

12:32

Then go back and explain, so that I frame your understanding of what I'm saying.

12:39

My understanding is that in 2000, let's say 2008, they had interviewed 44 women, let's say,

12:50

around that number. You have to understand, not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me

12:57

in a single report, and it's not because they didn't mention me in the report,

13:06

because they never met me, they never saw me, and they never interacted with me.

13:12

So to go back to your question, it's not that I thought one way or another, it's that I didn't

13:19

see them. Okay, I see, okay. Does that? Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's helpful. So I'm not,

13:26

when I say not one, not one single one of those reports talks about me, and I just want to

13:32

clarify exactly, because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls is, was one of the witnesses

13:39

in my trial, specifically to use her own testimony so that you don't have to hear my point of view.

13:52

It's better if it comes from her own words, and that way there's no second-guessing with what I'm

14:00

saying. She herself said that she recruited her, brought her, and trained her. Those are

14:11

own words. That you were, that you didn't know. I mean, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

14:22

I really do have some slow cognition issues. So she says, she testifies that it was

14:31

that that recruited her and trained her and not you. So wait, so then in her first FBI

14:41

meeting, she reports seeing a woman with short dark hair at the house, which then

14:49

is used as evidence that that person was myself. But the maid lady that who helped keep the house,

15:00

John Alessi's wife, and with an accent, I believe she said. John Alessi's wife had short dark hair

15:09

and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find, and you can ask yourselves this, I mean, I've obviously

15:16

modified my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm British. I've been brought up with

15:21

a very strong British accent, and I don't believe there's American on planet Earth that doesn't

15:25

recognize this to be British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't know. But it's not

15:30

some random accent. Now the Hispanic, maybe, okay, that was John's wife that she saw, not me.

15:38

And I'd like to point out further how you potentially her own, through her own words,

15:44

she identified- Why don't we, why don't we stop there and let them ask the next question.

15:48

Okay. So it's, so just, and look, I wanna, I wanna try to, I think probably tomorrow

15:58

we'll, I wanna talk more about kind of the evidence against you and how to address that.

16:04

Okay, sorry. No, no, no, don't apologize. So that's helpful, but I don't want you to be burdened,

16:11

I want you to just tell the truth the best you can, so I don't want you to be burdened by what

16:14

people said at trial or what you know the press says about you. I just thought it was illustrative

16:18

when you asked the question. It was, it was. Because it doesn't, I did not, I absolutely have

16:26

no memory at any, no, I'm leaving separate to this obviously, so that's a separate story. I'm not

16:32

going to pretend, well, we'll come back. We'll get to, go ahead. But in the terms of the scheme

16:39

or whatever, however you want to determine what you're calling that,

16:41

I have no, no memory, no active anything of having seen anybody that resembles

16:55

a young child, let's call it what it is, at that house giving him a massage. At all. It's not even

17:03

like I did this. It's an at all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me either,

17:11

including. Did, and when you say that house. Oh, sorry, Palm Beach. You know, I understand

17:21

what you mean, but does the same memory or lack that I've applied to on planes at New Mexico,

17:30

in New York. Well, with some other important caveats. Well, on that,

17:35

um, but Jolin Jane in my trial was clearly underage, clearly a child. And I only saw her

17:44

in Palm Beach and I only saw her with her mother. Um, the other person is clearly also, uh, not

17:53

an adult or even close. I believe I remember her now, but, um, that would be the only two or three.

18:01

Whatever that is. So, um, did you ever know Mr. Epstein to communicate with, um, FBI agents,

18:14

either like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source or just generally with FBI agents?

18:20

No. Do you think if he had done that, you would have known, like he would have told you something

18:25

like that. Like if I said to you, um, Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say that's

18:34

crazy? No, he wasn't, or maybe he was. I would, he wouldn't have told me that anyway. Um,

18:42

I have two answers for that. I think if he was for real,

18:47

I think he would have bragged about it to me as a show off because he could be a show off.

18:53

And if he wasn't, he might have dropped it like he was cool. And I don't think,

19:05

I don't remember him doing either. Now, with again, the caveat that in his, before I met him,

19:12

finding money, I think he may have suggested that there was people who helped him, but that's

19:19

the only context that I recall that in. What do you mean by that? When you said finding money,

19:25

what do you mean? Well, his business where he, remember I told you, I think in that context,

19:32

he showed me a photograph that he had with some, um, African warlords or something that he told me.

19:39

And, you know, I get, I don't remember if that's what I interpreted, like that kind of thing,

19:48

or whether it was something like that. That's the only actual active memory I have of something

19:55

nefarious, not nefarious. I don't even know if it was nefarious, but

19:59

covert, I suppose, would be the word. And what about any other intelligence agency, like the CIA

20:05

or Defense Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency? All right. I don't think so. I think that

20:19

I don't remember anything like that. I just don't think he had the wherewithal. And I think that

20:24

whole aspect of that is, can I use a bad word? Yes. Yes. Bullshit.

20:34

And what do you, um, you think is bullshit, meaning, um, what do you mean?

20:43

Would you have known if he was, would he have been bragging to you? Would he have been saying

20:46

these things? I think he was because I, I think, I'm sorry, I think that, um,

20:53

I think one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my, you know,

20:57

my family connections and why he liked other people was because they were cool or whatever.

21:04

And I think that certainly early in when I met him, he would have tried to impress me or try to

21:11

show off, if you will, like he was that guy, you know, and he wasn't that guy. And so,

21:20

and I think that he would have tried to bullshit me and he didn't. So I think it's,

21:24

did, um, he may have tried to bullshit me, but no, sorry.

21:29

So I want to just shift for a few minutes to talk about

21:34

post 2000, 2000 to kind of when your relationship changed over the years with him. Um, did there

21:40

come a time when he, Mr. Epstein did meet members of the royal family? Yes. Um, when was that?

21:49

So I need to go back because I think I may have misspoke. I didn't misspeak,

21:53

but it's something that I had forgotten before I met Epstein. He lived in London for a period of

22:00

time. I don't know for how long. And he met and knew some truly fancy people, like people,

22:10

high society people that included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was Rosa Moncton

22:17

and Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson, who's a famous journalist that she's a very well known

22:22

journalist. And, um, when I, um, and he had, he was friends with the bearings, bearings bank,

22:32

and he had like sort of that that was before he met me before. So in the 80s, yes, he was dating

22:41

Eva Anderson, miss Sweden. I think, I don't know when she became. Okay. So earlier when you said

22:47

that he met them later, you think he may have met some members of the royal family or certainly

22:53

British high society? He met, I don't know about the royal family, but certainly high society.

22:57

Okay. And the reason why I know this is because sometime we can, this is a document, documentable

23:05

thing, docu, whatever. There's a photograph that can give you the date because I don't remember

23:10

what the date is of this. So there's something that will peg whatever this date is. I don't

23:15

remember when that is. Epstein went to London without me. He often went everywhere without me,

23:23

but he was in London without me, which was decently unusual because London's my hometown. But

23:27

anyway, he went without me and he went to a big event in, I think it was in the park. Anyway,

23:35

it was a big event. It's on, it's on, it's on the news. It's like there's photographs of it and he,

23:40

I don't know if he sat with Diana or he met Diana or he really met her. I don't know, but this,

23:44

I believe, was organized by Rosa. And so there's, I don't know if she was being set up as a date

23:51

for him, maybe, because I don't want to speak bad of Diana, but I'm not going to do it.

23:57

Okay. So that was pre-meeting you.

24:00

No, that was when that event happened when we were.

24:03

Oh, okay. That was not right.

24:05

No, it's when we were, I'm not going to say together, but how about this? When I was his

24:09

employee.

24:10

Okay.

24:12

So now moving back to the 2000s, there come a time when Mr. Epsi met Prince Andrew?

24:19

Yes.

24:20

And others in the royal family or just Prince Andrew as far as you know?

24:26

So as much as I can piece it together, first of all, let's just state I did not introduce him

24:35

to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth.

24:42

Start with that. So now I'm going to tell you how he did actually meet him.

24:46

So if you find me that photograph, I can date that time when he met Princess Diana at that event.

24:53

And based on that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post that event,

24:56

because I haven't looked it up and I've never bothered to check. So Lynne Forrester,

25:03

who was a client or some type of client, I think she actually tried to date him or

25:07

might have dated him for the record. She was in, do you want to ask me something?

25:17

No, no, go ahead.

25:17

Okay. She was, she had a house or she rented a house in the vineyard. I think it was in the

25:24

vineyard or Nantucket. I can't remember now which one it was. It was one of those.

25:28

So either Nantucket or the vineyard. And invited Epstein to go. And I believe,

25:39

I believe that's when he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event,

25:44

he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein

25:55

and had arranged with Lynne or I don't know. I don't know now. I'm speculating. Anyway,

26:00

long and short, he met Andrew up there.

26:04

And I'm not holding you to an exact date, but when approximately was that?

26:07

Well, we can date it from that picture. If you find me the picture.

26:10

But do you know, without looking at a photo, in your mind, approximately when was that?

26:15

I want to say it was 2000, 2000, no, probably 2001, 2002.

26:21

Early 2000s.

26:22

Yes.

26:23

And I think it was actually Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through

26:32

you.

26:33

I think that's true. So, well.

26:37

It's true that Andrew said that.

26:39

No, I'm sure it's true. Because I, I'm English and my close friends are all

26:50

close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew

26:57

before, but certainly we were friendly and certainly his best friends. Some of them were

27:02

very, very close with me. And I think that my friendship,

27:09

my, me being present, or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey more, like trust him.

27:18

So you don't dispute that you're, that you kind of had a role in them getting together.

27:25

You're just saying you didn't say, Prince, here's Jeffrey.

27:28

I would never have introduced them. It would never have occurred to me to introduce them.

27:32

I couldn't imagine them being friends. Two chalk and cheeses would never, I mean, for real,

27:37

there's nothing there to connect them. So he met Prince Andrew and then he had a really

27:43

good relationship. I don't like that word. It sounds clunky. They had a

27:48

print.

27:49

Acquaintanceship.

27:50

Thank you. And through Sarah, actually, I think Sarah is the one that pushed that.

27:56

And they met and hung out, I want to say, two or three times that had nothing to do with me.

28:04

I wasn't communicating with Andrew. I wasn't in touch with him. And I know this because I was

28:10

annoyed and I felt left out and I felt that it disrespected. And I was like, this is weird.

28:23

And I couldn't even imagine Epstein and Andrew together. And I thought that Sarah was trying

28:27

to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I'm being honest. And I thought the whole thing was annoying.

28:35

What happened with the relationship, putting aside the publicity around Prince Andrew's

28:40

purported relationship with what happened as far as you know, with Prince Andrew

28:47

and Mr. Epstein's relationship from the times you just described.

28:51

Okay, so after that, at some point, Jeffrey told me, Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New

28:58

York and I needed to organize the whole thing. That's classic, by the way. Classic, Epstein.

29:06

Of course, if someone's like, all right, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make sure

29:12

that Andrew was taken care of and that he was comfortable, he had whatever he needed and yada

29:17

yada yada. And I'm like, well, am I going to meet him or are you just going to have me do all the

29:21

job? And he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello. Hi, wow. That's so nice of you,

29:28

for real. Because you have to understand, like, I don't know if I told you this before,

29:32

but I did not have the keys to his house. I was not allowed to go to his house unless I was

29:36

summoned or told. I was not allowed to answer his phones. We can go there. But anyway, so this,

29:42

we can tell this is a bit of a sore point, perhaps. Anyway, so Andrew came and of course,

29:49

the minute we got together, I was like, yay, hi. And it was so nice because the difference

30:01

of being in England with Prince Andrew versus being in New York without all the bullshit

30:07

was insane. And our friendship just like lit up like this. Because first of all, we knew

30:13

that I'm safe. I mean, safe as in I'm not, you know, Nigel Dempsey or taking a page.

30:21

Not in a million years would I do something so gross. And we honestly got on like a house

30:26

off. I really liked him a lot. And he's, it was so nice. And we just became really, really good

30:34

friends. Much more so than when we were in London, if I'm honest. And then with respect to

30:41

and Prince Andrew, what do you know about that relationship?

30:47

Would you like to ask that again? Relationship's a big word. Like I said, I don't like the word.

30:52

Let's just start there. Okay. So I have read, I just want to like piece together. But don't say,

30:59

before you say what you read, because that's one of the problems is that we're all kind of.

31:03

Well informed by like all the publicity and information around what everybody else has said.

31:08

But what do you know? What do you think? Or what did you see? What did you hear?

31:15

What's an even bigger word than bullshit? Okay. Why? Well, go ahead. Just, but finish that thought.

31:20

Why do you think that? I'm going to tell you right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm like excited.

31:26

I'm beyond excited. Okay. So there's going to mixture of what I've actually seen

31:32

and know from the evidence and versus what I've played together. I'm impossible for me at this

31:38

point to separate everything, but I'll tell you what I know versus what I saw and what I

31:43

physically have in here. But it's helpful for you to know. So the allegation, I have to go with the

31:51

allegation. The allegation was that at my house in London in March, whatever that was, 2001, I believe,

31:59

we went to London especially so that I could have a relationship with Prince Andrew and she

32:09

was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose. Okay. And that she then got in my bathroom in my

32:21

house in London and had sex, sexual relations with him and then went into my guest room and had full

32:26

blown sex and then left my house. Oh, he left him. She felt used and disgusted. And a photograph

32:34

was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. That is what is the story.

32:42

Oh, and then after that she met him several other times, but we'll come to that. This is where it

32:46

will allegedly start. And they went to Tram. Oh, right, right, right. We went to a nightclub that

32:51

night. Oh, we went to dinner, right? We went to dinner and then to Tram. Okay. So the first thing

32:57

about that weekend, that specific weekend, was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country

33:04

and I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonials that you can check.

33:10

So that takes care of the reason why I, one of the reasons why her story doesn't hold water.

33:18

The second reason why, so by the way when I say that, my mum turned 80th that actual weekend

33:25

was her birthdays on March the 11th. And the reason why I went to London and I presume,

33:31

but this I don't remember, is why when we were, so the whole trip started

33:38

because of Alberto Pinto who is the decorator for the island and for New York as well.

33:47

And he had wanted Epstein to go to see

33:53

a house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went via the Alhambra. It was also for

34:02

New Mexico. So there's architectural pieces that, and that was the basis of that trip.

34:09

And I suspect now that that trip was planned all around the fact that I had to be and wanted to

34:16

was going to be in London no matter what for my mum's 80th birthday at my brother's house in

34:21

the country which is approximately an hour outside of London, an hour and a half outside of London

34:29

at my brother's home. And we all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday celebration on

34:37

the Sunday and then we left. So that's that. The second reason why, probably maybe even the

34:49

more important reason than my mum's birthday that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that Prince

34:54

Andrew, the idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house that's the size of this room

35:02

is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me as the man or what I just can't, I can't even know.

35:19

Is there any way that it could have happened? No. Just describe the physical plan.

35:23

Oh the physical. So my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square feet in total. Well maybe that.

35:32

Is that right? Maybe. It is on three floors however. So you're talking about a little,

35:39

it's a jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was the stables for the big houses. It was the

35:45

it was the little poor man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel. It was a gorgeous little

35:52

place but it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let's say it's a little burp or something,

36:00

you'd hear it. It just, where she says that they had relations in a bathroom,

36:10

first of all the bath is an old Victorian bath. I'm quite small, tight for me. I put my brother

36:21

in there to see what would happen and it looks like a blivet which is a sausage in a layer,

36:26

very tight skin. So her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't

36:33

work. The bathroom itself is so small you can't lie flat on the floor so it couldn't happen on the

36:37

floor because you physically can't. The bathroom is too small to even be on the floor and then

36:43

the kicker of all kickers is that because the bathroom was so small I decorated it to try and

36:49

make it look huge which meant that I put mirrors the whole way around it and what was so fun about

36:54

being in there is that if you stood in the bathroom you saw like a hundred of you, like you do if you

36:58

were in Alice in Wonderland or one of those things that you would see yourself going stretching

37:05

everywhere and it's the image if you said you were, let's say you were, let's say the b**** is telling

37:11

the truth, she could say she was having sex with 5,000 generations of the royal family because

37:18

that's how far back you could see yourself. There is no way in God's green earth if that had taken

37:23

place that this is something that you would miss because it's, you couldn't miss it. If you were

37:28

standing there now you'd see the whole of the FBI, the whole of the Department of Justice standing

37:32

behind you. It's like, no. Did you also explain where the tap was in the bathtub? Oh well it's an

37:42

old bathtub. I had a tap. So if you were in the tub, this was the tub, my tap would be here.

37:58

So you think it's kind of logistically and physically not something that could have happened?

38:03

What was that? And it's just, Andrew, he's so English. He's so, he's had a tie on.

38:25

Do you think it was any way it could have happened or no? Absolutely on no way, no how, absolutely

38:32

not. Wait, I haven't finished. So, oh sorry. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. It is me. Go ahead,

38:38

go, go, go. Finish, please, go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry, can I continue?

38:45

When all this nonsense took place, where this whole story with the picture and the this and the

38:50

that and this bullshit, I believe that this whole thing was manufactured and I can point you to some

39:01

potentially corroborating evidence of this. So when she gave the photograph to the FBI

39:09

in Australia. Just to be clear, the photograph you're talking about, you're talking about the

39:12

famous one? Yeah, I have an image of it here. Where Prince Andrew's holding the **** and you're

39:17

in the background. The fake. Just to be clear. So on the back of that, and this is in the discovery,

39:28

by the way. I don't know if it's in, I don't know where, which discovery I saw it in now,

39:33

but this is it. She wrote, she wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken

39:38

in January of 2000 and on 2000 or 2001. I don't remember. Okay. So now in her handwriting that

39:46

she's giving the FBI this picture, suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her writing,

39:52

it's January to March? It's because it only, that's the only one that fit with the flight logs.

39:58

That when she could be in London and this took place. The second thing is that,

40:03

I'm so excited to tell you this. There is a journalist. I know you guys are like, oh,

40:12

the fake news is at work here. So there's a journalist called Sharon Churcher. There is

40:22

a lawyer called Brad Edwards. These two, and there is a Southern District of Florida prosecutor

40:30

called Villafana. I would very much look forward to showing you the relationship

40:39

between these three parties that created that story. Why? Well, without putting aside the

40:47

relationship, why do you think they created that story? I believe that story was created for

40:57

the purposes of, well, there are multiple. The first one is financial.

41:04

The second one is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one was for the serialization,

41:15

both of her book and in the papers, for the story to attack the family.

41:20

So I think when you were just asked about the photo, you said you actually thought the photo

41:31

was fake. Do you think it was just misstated or do you think it's literally a fake photo?

41:37

I believe it's literally a fake photo. Why do you think that?

41:42

Well, first of all, I don't remember it. But the outfit I'm wearing is the outfit from my mom's

41:54

birthday party. But do you dispute that they've met each other?

42:04

Do you know whether they've met each other? I do not know that they met.

42:07

Okay, so you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even

42:12

positive they actually ever met each other. I know.

42:16

So you don't have a specific recollection of kind of being at an event or a party or your apartment

42:22

or your flat in London with Prince Andrew? Absolutely. She doesn't know one way or the

42:30

other. I understand that. The reason why I'm not hesitant, I don't have any memory of that,

42:36

so that's not the issue. The issue is, could Andrew have come to the house to see me or see

42:42

Epstein and say hi and she had been there? Yes, I can't say that that didn't happen.

42:47

But what I can absolutely categorically say is that I never at any time said Andrew up

42:56

to have relations with her or any other human being ever. And I can categorically state that

43:05

her characterisation of whatever may or may not have happened physically would just know.

43:12

And plus, I was in the country, so all of that's just not conceivable.

43:18

Did you attend social parties over, and again, I really now am focused on 2000 plus, so not the

43:36

early years, where Mr. Epstein would host the party or be a big part of the hosting of the party

43:44

and some of or many of the young women who were masseuses would be invited to the party as

43:51

guests or as entertainment? I certainly went to his house when he would have people who would be

44:00

there that were, I'd call them, the way I would think of it and I would characterise it were his

44:07

entourage, that's how I thought about it. And that's certainly within the later 2000s, yes.

44:16

Did you attend any weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, I'm mostly focused on

44:26

post-2000, but if there's something that comes to mind in the 90s, that's fine as well.

44:31

A wedding? Weddings. With Epstein? I don't think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein,

44:41

but I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him.

44:46

Do you know, so you don't remember, you didn't attend President Clinton's daughter's wedding?

44:53

I did. Chelsea Clinton's? But that wasn't with Mr. Epstein? No, it was with Ted Waite,

44:58

my boyfriend. With Ted Waite, my boyfriend. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein was at that

45:04

wedding? He was not. And how did you, did you have a relationship, well, why did you get invited to

45:11

that wedding? Because Ted and Clinton were very close. And how were you close to them? What was

45:18

the reason you were close to them? I met President Clinton, first of all I went to the White House

45:25

with Epstein once for, I think it was for a historical, like one of those benefits,

45:32

and I met the President then, but like a thousand other people shook his hand. Then after that,

45:40

I had a very good friend of mine that was known to be the Mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine,

45:48

and Philip and the President were very good friends. And Philip was a very, and I were very

45:54

good friends, and so I actually was introduced to the President post his coming out of the White

46:02

House and became friendly with him because of Philip Levine. Because of what? Philip Levine.

46:12

There's some names that have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I just want

46:20

to ask you if you know about. Piers Morgan. Is friendly with who? With Mr. Epstein. I have

46:28

no idea. I doubt it. Yeah, there's no trick question. I'm not suggesting that I know the

46:34

answer to it. I'm genuinely just asking. Well, I would be astonished. I can't imagine they'd

46:38

have anything in common either. Were you friends with Piers Morgan? I've met him. I've met him.

46:46

I met him at an event in Manhattan. I can't remember what, more recently, so probably in

46:56

2012, something in that, and we had a very nice conversation. So I remember that. I remember

47:05

thinking, I don't know if I'd ever met him before, but I remember thinking how nice he was and how

47:10

surprised. So I liked him. What can I tell you? So that's the only memory I have of that. I'm

47:18

not sure if that's correct, but that's what I think. I don't have a correct or incorrect answer.

47:22

No, I just don't know. I just want to try and- No, no. I want you to believe me, because I mean

47:28

this. There is so much information in the public sphere about you and Mr. Epstein and others around,

47:37

and some of it is definitely true and some of it is definitely false. So when I ask a question,

47:43

if I think that you're not being honest or that you're missing something, this isn't got you.

47:50

Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? I'm sorry? Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? Yes. When was that? I met him at

48:01

Andrew Cuomo's wedding? No. Carrie, Carrie, Carrie's wedding. Carrie's wedding? Who did Carrie marry?

48:12

Andrew Cuomo. Yes. Sorry. Andrew Cuomo's wedding. When would that have been, approximately? 1990?

48:20

So before- 1999. Something like that. But would that have been before you met Mr. Epstein? Yes.

48:33

Did you have any sort of professional or social relationship with JFK Jr.?

48:38

I fancied him. You what? I thought he was very attractive. Oh, you fancied him. Sorry.

48:44

Besides him and finding him attractive and fancing him, did you have any sort of

48:49

social relationship with him? I mean, we knew each other and I thought he was wonderful and fun and

48:56

I enjoyed meeting him, but we went out. I wanted to say we had a dinner or two, but I was very

49:03

excited but that was it. And then Alan Dershowitz? What's the question with Alan? Say that again?

49:11

What's the question? Do you know Mr. Dershowitz? Yes. Do you know whether he knew Mr. Epstein?

49:16

Do you know the nature of their relationship? I definitely do know Alan. I'm just trying to

49:24

remember if I knew him. I haven't tried to remember how I met him. I met him separate from Epstein.

49:30

I don't remember. So that I have no recollection. I remember, I know that he was Epstein's lawyer.

49:40

I don't know if they had any relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I do actually.

49:47

I think they met at the same Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forrester. I think that's what

49:53

happened. I think that's it. And why do you think that?

50:01

And did you, did you, you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's attorney.

50:07

Do you know whether they also socialized? So my present memory of when I remember two,

50:15

I have two distinct memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at the island.

50:22

And I actually remember that. And I remember I think going to his house in Boston. If he had

50:32

a house in Boston, that's any two times I remember. Did you ever observe Mr. Dershowitz

50:38

doing anything inappropriate with young women around Mr. Epstein? Never. Did you ever hear

50:44

anybody, did anybody ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate? Absolutely not.

50:49

Did you ever, did you know one way or the other whether Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage

50:56

at the island or any locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein?

51:02

I don't, I don't remember anything about him ever getting a massage. I don't ever

51:06

have any recollections. I don't believe I ever even saw him in a bathroom.

51:10

I have no knowledge of that. I'm jumping around a little bit. You mentioned, I think briefly,

51:24

that the Terra Mar project. Yes. What is that? I found a Terra Mar in, the idea of Terra Mar

51:36

came I think in 2010. So I want to just explain Terra Mar a little bit. So Ted and I bought a

51:54

boat, well Ted bought the boat. And its basis of the boat was to do explorations and sea,

52:07

sea exploratory stuff. This really started because I have and have had since I was a child

52:14

a love of the ocean and everything aquatic. And I've always been, I'm nervous about the state of

52:31

the ocean. When Ted and I, we worked with National Geographic and we did exploratory work and the

52:39

most exciting, we did many exciting things, but one of the most fabulous ones that we did was

52:44

we looked for Amelia Earhart twice, added two expeditions to look for Amelia Earhart

52:51

as an example of an exploration that we did. And he had a foundation for the ocean and we worked

53:02

with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole, we did amazing things. We bought, he bought the Remus

53:13

6000. So when the plane went missing, the plane that went to Air France from Brazil to Paris that

53:20

went down, it was the Remus 6000 that found that plane. It's one of those deep sea undue exploratory.

53:25

Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, one of the things I did not want to give up was

53:34

my love of the ocean and everything that we did. Terra Mar, the genesis of Terra Mar came from that.

53:40

Terra Mar obviously means land, sea, and the story of the ocean is that

53:47

Earth really shouldn't be called Earth, it should be called ocean because three quarters is the ocean.

53:52

And so I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted because

53:59

it was a bit awkward between us. And so he took all the part of the ocean that was close to land,

54:05

so within 200 miles, and so I decided I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was

54:09

outside of the national borders, Terra Mar. And that's how that, that's the genesis of Terra Mar.

54:15

So what was the time period of that? I think after I broke up with Ted, so

54:20

2010, 11 is when it started, and then I ran it all the way up until

54:26

whenever the Epstein drama struck and then I just shut it down. I shut it down because I didn't want

54:34

what was happening to hurt any, the Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the,

54:41

I just couldn't let everything be hurt by what was happening to me.

54:48

Do you know Jean-Luc Bernal? Yes.

54:51

How do you know him? I met him, so when I told you I was

54:56

working for the European for my dad and I was in charge. So back in like 90, early 90s?

55:01

Yeah. And I was running a magazine. One of the things in the magazine is fashion. And so

55:11

I was going to some fashion shows and I was looking for fashion sponsorship. And in fact,

55:18

when I came to America, one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron Pellman at Revlon,

55:25

who was great. And I met Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that, but socially not.

55:38

Did Mr. Epstein know him as well? Did you later learn whether they knew each other?

55:42

I'm not sure. I don't, he would have, Epstein had his own fashion situation. So he would have,

55:49

he didn't meet Jean-Luc through me. Did you ever observe them together over the years?

55:54

Absolutely. Yeah, I saw them many times together. Did he visit the island? Did he

56:02

go to Palm Beach House? Yeah, he went everywhere. I saw him in every place.

56:06

Did you ever observe him getting a massage? Or do you ever know what they got a massage?

56:13

Maybe you didn't observe it personally? You don't remember?

56:19

I don't remember. I have no conscious memory of Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did,

56:26

but I don't. How about Mr. Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein?

56:33

What would you like to know? Do you know him?

56:35

Yes. How do you know him?

56:39

I guess, when I say how do you know him, is it a relation you had

56:43

kind of separate from Mr. Epstein? Or did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?

56:48

I wouldn't say I had any type of relationship with Harvey Weinstein

56:53

in any context. Socially I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at,

56:59

and also his wife was English, Georgina. And I was friendly also would be a big word,

57:05

more requiem. So we would see each other and I would go to Miramax events. There was a couple

57:13

of people who worked for Harvey, who I was friendly with. His primary producer, his name is

57:19

Merrill Poster, who I was friendly with. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had his

57:29

own relationship with Mr. Weinstein? He did.

57:32

Did they socialize together at the island or in Palm Beach or New Mexico?

57:39

I never saw Harvey at any of Epstein's houses. I don't know that they were friends.

57:44

I can't see them together either. I mean, literally. But I know that they certainly

57:51

do that. I would imagine, and in fact I think I have a memory but I can't,

57:57

that when Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business was called. I can't

58:04

remember what his business was called. Maybe he went there because Epstein was good at raising

58:09

money. I just don't know. But I never saw them. I don't recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties.

58:16

Let's go a few more minutes and take a break. We talked several hours ago about your father

58:26

and his business a little bit. After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was

58:32

involved in your family business that you know of? Absolutely not. In any respect. First of all,

58:40

there was no family business left, to start with that problem. And the second one is,

58:47

my family didn't like him very much and they were busy dealing with their own problems and there was

58:54

no relationship whatsoever. I mean, my mom and he got along quite well. That was it. But that was,

59:01

she's an old lady. He was nice to her. We're now being a little repetitive but

59:11

you're confident that before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your father and so

59:17

there's no, he wouldn't have done business with your father's companies in the 80s either.

59:23

Absolutely not. I'm 100% sure of that. I never met him. I never saw him. I never heard his name.

59:28

So, there's been a lot of conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained a list of people,

59:42

like a book of famous people that he knew. It's called a black book or a client list or a list.

59:55

Did you know of the existence of any such list? There is no list. We'll start with that.

1:00:03

The genesis of that story, I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception,

1:00:10

if that is what you're interested in. First, to be short, there is no list,

1:00:16

there is no client list, nothing like that. No, there is nothing like that. That you know.

1:00:21

Okay, so you say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead, tell us.

1:00:29

I'd like you to know that I have brought some supporting corroborative evidence.

1:00:33

Well, tell me what it is too and then we'll get the cooperation.

1:00:37

Do you want to take a break here? Because this is a long story.

1:00:41

Let's take a break. Yeah, let's take a break.

1:00:44

All right, the time is 2.03 and we're going to take a break right now.

0:00

Alright, we're resuming the recorded proffer of Miss Maxwell. It is 2 16 on Thursday, July 24th

0:10

Recording device is now on

0:13

When we stopped to take a break we were talking about

0:19

what has been publicly discussed as a black book or the Epstein list and

0:25

And

0:28

That's where we are so you said you you think you might know or that you're aware of kind of

0:33

The origin of this narrative, right? I just want to reiterate again

0:38

There is no list that I am aware of I've never at any time at least during the period of time when I was

0:45

Okay present. Okay the origin of this

1:01

story, I believe

1:04

I believe begins

1:08

Or it has a it has a beginning in

1:11

2009 and then it has a it has a prequel but we have to start in 2009 in

1:19

2009 there is

1:24

Epstein is I think out of jail and

1:30

There are civil suits taking place

1:35

Many of these are

1:38

Coming out of a

1:40

Disgraced law firm Rothstein Adler Rothstein

1:45

Rosenfelten Adler at that law firm is a lawyer who started there in

1:59

April May 2009 called Brad Edwards in

2:11

2009

2:14

allegedly the FBI gets a call in

2:21

October of 2009

2:24

from Brad Edwards

2:28

He allegedly tells them that he has come across a piece of

2:35

Evidence that belongs to Epstein that contains a list of

2:46

All of his clients and

2:49

And

2:51

Victims

2:53

underage girls massage therapists and

2:58

his and

3:01

The men who are having sex with them and he becomes he Brad Edwards becomes a cooperating witness

3:11

Cooperating

3:13

Confidential informant sorry confidential informant for them and in a sting operation

3:19

Obtains

3:22

The list from a

3:26

Former battler of Epstein's called Alfredo Rodriguez, and it becomes

3:35

Evidence in the civil suit in the

3:47

Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted for

3:53

Having an ak-47 or something weird some guns or something

3:58

And goes to trial and there's a criminal complaint that the FBI produced and in that criminal complaint

4:04

it says that

4:07

Brad Edwards became aware of

4:10

The list that will call it the list for the purposes of this

4:16

after Alfredo Rodriguez's

4:19

two depositions that are held in

4:22

In

4:24

Epstein's a Epstein civil suit it's in the FBI's

4:31

Affidavit that the evidence was collected and Brad I was became where it after the second deposition

4:38

It's in the criminal complaint. The truth is

4:47

different from what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI affidavit and in Brad Edwards's

4:57

Own statements on the subject

4:59

the truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed twice once in July and once in August and

5:08

in the July

5:10

Deposition told Brad Edwards that he had

5:16

Handwritten notes or a journal or whatever in the deposition and

5:21

Brad Edwards replies well, we're going to come back for a second deposition and the second deposition takes place in August

5:30

what this means is that Brad Edwards had access to the

5:36

List from

5:39

Sometime between July and August until when he actually called the FBI in October

5:46

So we're talking

5:48

six months or so

5:54

Rostein's firm

5:57

was

5:59

raided a

6:01

few days after the list went into the FBI's hands and

6:08

Subsequently Rostein himself was prosecuted for Rico and I believe went to jail for 50 years

6:15

as part of that Rico case

6:18

He admitted to on the record and was I don't know whether he was prosecuted for creating

6:24

Fake settlements and fake evidence in Epstein's in

6:38

2009

6:40

Simultaneously was this was going on my

6:48

Boyfriend Ted Waite

6:50

Was asked for ten million dollars to keep me out of any of Epstein's

6:55

civil suits

6:57

up until then I

7:00

Had not been in any of Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure

7:05

Say for the first time I was mentioned was by I

7:10

hadn't been I was basically

7:13

nowhere

7:15

And then Ted was called for this ten million dollars and had been shown

7:20

his people had been shown

7:24

evidence that included

7:27

the list

7:30

the flight logs and various other

7:33

Pieces of evidence now, we're going to the prequel part of this story. So then it can tie to how this starts

7:47

in

7:50

2007 Epstein signs the non-prosecution agreement

7:54

he then fights the prosecution agreement or debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened there and and

8:04

Is goes to the court in 2008 when

8:09

It's accepted or whatever

8:13

Villafana was the lead prosecutor over the lead. Yes in that case and

8:22

She I think was not happy with the outcome and

8:33

Utilized at that time Brad Edwards to

8:42

File the CVRA case now

8:49

What is?

8:52

What I have managed to understand from this is within the OPR itself there is evidence

8:58

There it says that Brad Edwards was the only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to so I just want to preface that

9:06

The reason why I know that she

9:13

went behind

9:15

Acosta's back and

9:17

Everything else to do this is because Brad Edwards in a podcast

9:23

made the revelation

9:25

What he says is that he'd never heard of the CVRA case before and Villafana called him and

9:33

Told him to file it the sole

9:36

purpose of the CVRA

9:38

Was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement

9:42

So what I believe is that Villafana worked with Brad Edwards who she had also

9:50

Been he was the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono

9:53

lawyer for

9:55

some of the victims and

9:58

He was also working for

10:01

Rothstein's firm that was under Rico investigation for that entire time

10:05

creating fake evidence in Epstein's case and

10:10

She had just filed hidden secret

10:15

Using Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the number of this CVRA case that sole purpose was to overturn it and

10:23

so when he

10:25

Approached her with

10:27

the list

10:29

this was part of the effort to

10:33

Utilize and find new evidence to support the overturning

10:37

either of the NPA and or the new case against Epstein because

10:45

Brad Edwards or I don't know if it's Brad Edwards because Rothstein's firm

10:50

Asked my then boyfriend for 10 million dollars to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever

10:57

I now know that the base of this story was a blackmail of a

11:03

Billionaire because Ted Waite was a multi-billionaire. He had everything he was

11:09

Way way more wealthy than Epstein

11:12

And that is the reason why it had an eyebrow or was the basis

11:23

so

11:24

and that list was created so then the

11:28

The

11:29

Mesooses that were on that list

11:31

I'd never heard of some of them. I

11:35

Not even from the civil suits that had come up since I've seen it

11:39

This is me now knowing what's in the list today, and I believe that oh

11:48

Alfredo Rodriguez

11:49

So there's a metamorphosis of this list. So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes that's in the documents

11:56

Contemporaneously is

11:58

That it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has it then morphs into something that Alfredo

12:05

Took a book that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer, but there's no computer

12:11

I know certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken that came out as a book and then it morphed

12:20

Into at the civil times my civil cases into a book that was taken from my computer

12:26

And then it morphed into the Southern District of New York as a combination

12:30

list of mine and Epstein's that is a

12:34

Metamorphosis through

12:37

Documents that you can trace so the the there in your mind

12:48

For what you just described

12:50

There is a list. It's just it's just manufactured

12:54

I mean have you seen the the list even fake like, you know, I

13:02

Haven't seen it. But but I guess my thing is that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things in the paperwork and whatnot

13:10

and then

13:11

So all this story is basically controlled by five people

13:14

There's four alleged victims that speak about the list and the blackmail and the men and the sex and whatnot and and the lawyers

13:23

And now the prosecutors sorry the Southern District of New York for sure

13:28

But no one else

13:30

None of these stories carry from any of the 44 alleged original victims

13:34

They never ever say that they were farmed out to anybody but the list itself. Yes, where is it?

13:42

There is no list but Brad Brad Edwards said that he created the used about sorry

13:47

He created a list he so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced that became evidence exhibit 52 in my trial

13:56

Have markings all over it circles and dots and whatnot and

14:02

Brad Edward says that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of

14:08

All the people who were involved it includes Alan Dershowitz for the record who's marked

14:13

I don't remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don't I don't know you'd have to look I don't have it but I

14:23

Believe it's a way he did he marked up

14:26

I don't know who somebody marked up that book of names and I think all the names of the people that they went for

14:32

Were originally selected between two sources one was this alleged book of names and

14:39

one was also from the telephone logs that were collected from the house in Palm Beach and

14:46

Just to finish it off

14:48

There is a note

14:51

I have some papers for you if you wanted them where

14:55

Brad Edwards says that he has a list of 25 men that he got money

15:01

so, okay, so

15:05

so the list that everybody the black book the list what you're saying is that

15:10

your your your exhibit 52 from your trial, which is

15:15

like a more of an address book a Rolodex type thing that

15:19

Mr. Rodriguez Alfredo Rodriguez

15:22

Your understanding is that somewhere along the way he went through and kind of marked that list

15:26

I don't know where that book actually comes from. Okay. I don't know what that book is

15:31

That book is some type of a compilation

15:35

But what it is is it's just pieces of paper with type. So if you had

15:40

You could have made a list

15:42

I could put

15:45

But you're referring to something that's been public for a long if we're thinking about the same thing you're talking about the you write

15:51

It's like a bunch of different types of paper

15:54

Or whatever I only have a copy of it

15:57

But with big parts of it redacted publicly because yes people's addresses. Yes

16:04

So it oh

16:06

Perfect. Yes, so you will find we're looking at exhibit 52 now. Okay, so you're looking at exhibit 52

16:12

so

16:13

The one they produced they the Southern District of New York actually produced a book for me to see it as evidence

16:20

the actual thing it was and I

16:22

It has marks. It has tabs. It has things as names

16:26

I've never seen it had like that list of music those that list

16:30

was

16:32

basically the names that they choose to produce a trial now in

16:37

Rosteen Adler's firm. I also have some documents where it's Rosteen

16:43

his

16:44

His original scheme at Rosteen Adler was to place prostitutes. He had a bar

16:51

dancey bar

16:53

Where he had girls and I believe he would use them and put them as fake

16:58

Secretaries in people's offices and then she might touch him or he might touch her or something and boom

17:04

He got $25,000 for that and those girls I'm not saying that those are the girls that came in Epstein's

17:11

case

17:13

necessarily

17:15

But the so

17:20

So but again, let's like so we're separating

17:25

the evidence that came in at your trial and

17:31

What you just talked about with Brad Edwards and mr. Rodriguez

17:37

During the time that you were with mr. Epstein and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently

17:45

You never observed your you never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who

17:57

Linked to certain masseuses or anything like that absolutely no

18:03

There is no list there is no

18:06

I'm not aware of any

18:09

Blackmail, I never heard I never heard that I never saw it and I never I

18:15

never imagined it

18:19

While we're on this topic just gonna know we're jumping around

18:24

We've been going out for a while. So I apologize, but

18:27

There's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for mr. Epstein, I think for his

18:34

50th birthday in

18:37

That's true. What do you what do you know about that?

18:40

so

18:42

my mom did a birthday book for my father at his sixtieth and when I

18:53

Epstein would talk about his 50th. He said I don't know what I'm gonna do and I said well

18:57

There's a nice thing is my mom did this book for my dad. He said I love that idea. He said

19:04

Can you help coordinate it and

19:07

He organized

19:09

Who?

19:10

He called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the book and

19:16

Some in some instances I call people that ask them to contribute. What was in the book?

19:21

Like what was the ask of the of the people you call?

19:24

It's his 50th birthday

19:28

Okay, I mean

19:30

I mean it was an obvious question

19:31

But you basically his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday

19:38

Yes, they say happy birthday with like a wonderful day or something else

19:43

There was no there was no ask but I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book and there were people that he would

19:50

Ask himself to contribute and do you remember some do you remember specific names of individuals?

19:58

Who did send letters or who did contribute?

20:01

It's been so long. I want to tell you today. I don't remember

20:09

Do you the the the article talks about

20:14

Several names but including the folks the article which is on Donald Trump

20:17

Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note?

20:25

Do you think the articles well, do you remember seeing

20:33

That book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York?

20:39

Yes, okay, what do you remember seeing I remember there was

20:44

There were some portions of that book, but what surprised me

20:51

Yeah, that what surprised me was how few there were because I thought if you had those where are the rest

20:59

There was none of mr. Trump

21:02

In your discovery in my discovery. Sorry president Trump. There was nothing from and do you remember?

21:10

But separate apart from your discovery. Do you remember one where the other whether president Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?

21:16

I do not remember and

21:19

the the article that references the letter talks about

21:23

Like that sounds like either naked a picture of naked woman or something like like that. Do you have any recollection of that? I do not

21:32

Wait, just no, I don't

21:36

Do you remember

21:40

So, what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the the book like you said portions of it or so

21:46

What do you remember?

21:49

there were maybe

21:50

That's I just want to say about the discovery that I had about

21:58

Maybe this is an exaggeration. I'm not sure but in my mind it's about close to five million pages five million documents

22:03

It was a lot and of that giant

22:08

document dump that I received I

22:10

Was only

22:12

Maybe as much as 30 to 35 percent. I was never able to access and this is documented on at the court and

22:21

So I cannot say that I saw everything because I didn't yeah, okay

22:25

I just want you to know that and I think that that was by design

22:29

But you but you do remember I do remember some seeing some pages. I did. Yes. Okay. Do you remember what stages you saw?

22:39

Like from it was from who had written those letters or no, I really don't remember sorry

22:47

Did you did you

22:50

And or so the same questions we've asked about some other individuals

22:54

Did you have did you meet Bill Gates over the years? Yes

22:59

Because of your relationship with mr. Epstein or separate that one. Well, I met mr. Gate

23:04

I went to the tech conference. I think I went to tech conference and I actually spoke at the tech conference

23:09

And not the main stage the sub stage and I also gave several TEDx's but and I met him there

23:15

But we were friendly and I actually did

23:18

meet him

23:21

Because I knew his I don't know if he's chief of staff or whoever Boris and

23:28

I met him. I think once I I may have met him actually at 71st Street

23:34

I I may have once I don't remember if I met him there or at a restaurant. I don't remember and that would have been

23:41

Because of Epstein because Epstein was friendly with Boris and Boris, but that's all I remember. Do you know whether mr. Gates

23:49

Traveled with mr. Epstein on his plane to any of his houses. So if that that friendship was after you know

23:57

Was in the late 2000s

23:59

So if I met him, like I said, I went to Epstein's house

24:02

Twice I maybe met him that I don't remember

24:04

So you don't so I wouldn't know if he had been on Epstein and you weren't you don't recall it being on the plane

24:09

With him flying to the island or to anywhere. No

24:14

Do you know someone named Reid Hoffman? I do who's that?

24:21

Rita Silicon Valley guy is what Silicon Valley?

24:25

And how do you know him?

24:28

Through my friends in San Francisco. I have a I used to have a very close friend who was in San Francisco

24:33

Part of that whole I've several actually people had

24:37

So is that a relationship you have kind of separate and apart from mr. Epstein separate?

24:42

Do you know whether?

24:44

Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman. I don't know. Did you ever observe mr. Hoffman?

24:51

Flying anywhere with you or mr. Epstein

24:54

Getting massages

24:58

So there was there's a list a

25:15

List of multiple

25:17

Massuses that that is floating around. I think you had a new discovery. I think you were just talking about that

25:23

That list, do you know how that list was created?

25:30

No

25:31

That all that stuff that came out of that book. I

25:34

Know find suspect. It's far. It's part of the story. You just told us. Yes. Now. I'm not saying it's all fake

25:40

I don't know what's real what's not. I don't know what name is true now that it's been

25:44

To my mind anyway now that it has been

25:48

without a doubt

25:50

contaminated and possibly fraudulent I

25:53

Know I don't know

25:55

I mean obviously the numbers that I recognize in my own those are real

25:58

But how it was actually ended up put together and compiled and the purposes for it for which then they blackmailed my boyfriend

26:06

now, I'm just

26:08

over the years when you were

26:11

serving as like the general manager, so the

26:14

mid-90s all the way into the 2000s

26:16

Did you or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the massuses like a running list?

26:23

So there would have so there's two things or three ways. So I know that the house itself

26:31

John O'Lessie

26:33

had a Rolodex that he kept the names and numbers of all the

26:38

people that came to the house so that he could call so because I

26:43

Only was with Epstein even at best half the time so

26:48

When I was there

26:50

He had like his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed and when I wasn't there he had to rely on somebody else

26:56

Right, so be that John O'Lessie or whoever else

26:59

So everybody whoever was traveling with him or however wherever he was he needed somebody else to access information

27:06

So he had an assistant chief

27:10

Who was his secretary who would be the one that would update his his computer

27:16

You know like everybody has an address book

27:19

But was was what you're describing

27:22

which

27:24

I'm not make sense. I'm just was that a list of

27:28

Massuses or a list of people that

27:31

Might need to be contacted which would necessarily include a lot of the system. That's the latter

27:37

And

27:42

did you

27:44

Did you update that like were you part of were you one of the people that would would add names to it like if

27:49

masseuse came and

27:51

Leaves and mr. Epson says yes, it was good. Would you be part like how was the list kind of maintained or who maintained it?

27:59

Typically no because there would be an assistant who would do that plus

28:04

Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone ever

28:08

So

28:09

Or maintain or keep any of his messages in the office or at the house

28:14

So typically that wouldn't be because I wouldn't be the one could I say to you I never did it

28:20

No, of course not because that just seems ludicrous

28:24

But as a rule of thumb the answer would be no

28:29

Um

28:31

During the

28:33

2007 8 9 investigate the investigation out of the Southern District, Florida. So you said that you weren't

28:40

Contacted by law enforcement

28:43

After mr. Epson was charged. Did you have conversations with him about the investigation?

28:49

He never talked to me about it. Did you um, I

28:55

Mean, I can't let's put this way if he did I have no recollection of it

28:59

I mean, I'm sure he must have said this is all whatever he said or it's nothing or I mean

29:04

I just don't have any I just don't have any memory. I mean, I just I was I was with Ted my I was like gone

29:14

I mean plus I just didn't

29:17

Want to know I know so you don't know firsthand

29:22

Why the US attorney in Florida?

29:25

Made the deal that he did me mean you weren't part of that discussion along the way

29:30

Mr. Epson didn't say I'm getting a good deal or you know, I

29:35

Something's happening with the case. That's very good. You were you to the extent, you know anything about it. It's just from what you've

29:41

Heard or read from others not from mr. Epson. Is that right? He never talked about the non-prosecution to write key with me. No, but

29:49

He did but it's still enforceable

29:54

I mean he never said hey, do you hear you happy with this deal like that?

29:59

but I understood I

30:03

He never he never enjoined me to the

30:07

NPA, but I understand that he included me specifically and I'll tell you why

30:14

It's okay. You don't need to get it. Yeah, I don't want to talk about the legal. Yeah, the the what's on appeal

30:20

I'm just no I want the reason for my question just to be I'm not trying to eyes and there's there's a very strong belief

30:28

That he got a very good deal and that and and that he should he should have been sentenced to

30:36

More time or got a different sentence from the feds that are non-prosecution agreement

30:40

And I'm not asking you to a plan on that, but I'm wondering whether

30:46

He ever talked to you about that, but it sounds like he didn't

30:50

That he got a good deal. No, I think actually

30:53

Well his comments I've read was that he didn't get a good deal and I think that the you know when he fought it

30:59

So hard is because he didn't think he did when he was serving a sentence

31:04

were you ever were you around during that time like when he was allowed to leave during the day or

31:09

Travel during the day. I never called him. I never saw him and I never went to the jail. Um

31:17

So I'm gonna ask you questions that you shouldn't read into them

31:21

I just want to know whether you whether they

31:24

Resonate with you. Have you ever had any contact with any representative that you know of from Mossad?

31:33

The Israeli intelligence agency, can you ask me that again?

31:35

Has if you have had any contact with an individual that you understand to be from Mossad and Israeli intelligence agency

31:44

Well, not deliberately

31:45

Pardon me, not deliberately

31:48

And did you know we asked this we talked a little bit earlier we're just to put a finer point on it

31:53

Did you ever know that mr?

31:55

Did you ever we ever told you ever think that mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency including Mossad?

32:05

Well, I don't believe so but I wouldn't know I mean I would be very surprised if he did I don't think so no

32:12

We've talked about a lot of names and I'm sure we've there's some that we haven't covered. Are there any

32:23

Foreign nationals. So right now we've talked about

32:28

Some

32:29

British the royal family a little bit and maybe high society folks in Britain were there any international

32:38

Businessmen or politicians that that had a very close relationship or a close relationship with mr. Epstein

32:44

That we haven't already talked about over the top of my head. I can think of the hood Barack. You said that mr. Epstein

33:00

At some point in the mid to late 90s he started taking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take any other drugs?

33:08

No, I

33:12

Mean he took pills for his heart. I think

33:16

But I don't know whether no substances

33:19

What do you know anything about his heart condition?

33:23

I know we talked about this at you know 945 this morning

33:26

but do anything about his heart conditioning beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his ability to

33:33

Have sex

33:35

Other than what he told me. No, he never shared anything, but he did take pills

33:38

I don't know anything about that and I like I said he did the testosterone

33:44

Which made him me and we're jumping around a little bit

33:50

Do you know somebody named Donald Barr

33:54

He is I can represent to you

33:57

What's the former headmaster of the Dalton school what you mentioned earlier? All right

34:03

Do you remember any conversations with me to have seen about a book that mr. Barr wrote called space relations?

34:12

about aliens and sex

34:17

Do you know whether well have you ever met the former attorney general the United States bill Barr? No

34:26

Do you remember whether mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up in conversations you had with mr. Epstein?

34:34

I don't I don't recall any did you have a relationship or no, I'm using relationship and I appreciate you like that word

34:48

Did you know?

34:51

Mr. Epstein's brother mark Epstein. Yes. How did you know him through Jeffrey?

34:59

How would you describe your relationship close friendly my personal yes

35:05

I'm not that close but friendly enough. I mean, you know

35:13

How was

35:14

Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with his brother mark from what you observed. I mean they weren't brotherly but I think

35:23

That I don't know their periods when they were closer and then when they weren't I think sometimes

35:34

I've seen fans his brother irritating

35:41

And I think I know the answer is given what you just said about bill Barr, but did you ever hear any

35:50

From mr. Epstein or anybody else that that bill Barr had any role in

35:55

Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida or any role on that process with mr. Acosta. I never heard

36:08

I think you said this in an interview, but if I'm wrong

36:12

Forgive me

36:15

You do the view of mr. Epstein of whether he

36:21

Committed suicide or whether something else happened. Can we take a break break? Yeah. Yeah, we get a great. Yeah, sure

36:31

Actually, it's a good time to take a break anyway, because we lost one of the day

36:35

Alright, so we're gonna take a break at it's 253 Thursday, July 24th

36:41

You

0:00

We are continuing with the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell.

0:05

The time is now 310 p.m. Thursday, July 24th.

0:10

My colleagues alerted me to a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to ask you.

0:18

One is, well, we talked a few minutes ago about this birthday book that there's been press about.

0:32

I understand you don't remember anything with President Trump or a lot about the book anyway.

0:37

Do you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that?

0:43

I do not.

0:46

And do you remember, would you have been the one to do that or would somebody else have done that?

0:55

I did ask some people. I don't remember Mr. Trump, I don't remember who I did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself directly.

1:05

So it could have happened that way, if it happened at all.

1:09

You mentioned Ehud Barak. What was his involvement?

1:27

This would have been in the later 2000s, so I do not know how they met, but I do know that they, I don't know if friendly would be the right word,

1:44

I don't know that, but I know that they saw each other.

1:47

And only because my father, anything that touches Israel or the state of Israel, I'm always interested in because my father loved Israel,

2:01

and so I pay attention to it, and we have ties to Israel.

2:07

When you said it was later though?

2:08

Ties meaning friends and family, relations.

2:13

Do you know what the nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?

2:20

I don't.

2:22

Were you ever with them together?

2:25

I think I met, I have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don't know if he was with Epstein or, I don't remember.

2:34

I just know that I did see him and I'm trying, struggling to remember the context around it.

2:39

But if I, I'm sure it happened, but it must have been very brief because I don't have any serious memory of it, any deep memory of it.

2:48

And maybe this is obvious.

2:50

And maybe it comes also because I've read it in the press that maybe something that brought it to my memory, so that's also, I mean I'm also,

2:56

I think the press has been very contaminating, so I just, it's hard sometimes to separate those stories from your memory sometimes.

3:06

Do you know a British gymnast by the name of Heather Mann?

3:11

Yes.

3:12

Did she?

3:14

I didn't know she was a gymnast.

3:16

Oh, okay.

3:17

I'm reading something that says she was a gymnast, but please don't assume that that's correct.

3:21

Okay.

3:22

It's based upon my words.

3:23

Okay.

3:24

Did she ever travel with you and or Mr. Epstein?

3:27

I think, yeah, she did actually.

3:29

I think that she met him, one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point.

3:34

What, again, I know we're talking about time periods that are vast.

3:38

What time period would that have been?

3:41

Like after you, like since 2000?

3:45

I wanted to say, could be the 90s.

3:51

Could be the 90s.

3:52

I don't know.

3:53

But I mean, listen, there are people that pop out of the woodwork all the time.

3:55

I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in 93 and 94.

4:01

He obviously was very busy.

4:07

Where she's lying.

4:08

What was that?

4:09

Did someone named Mark Middleton?

4:13

Yes, I remember him.

4:14

Who was that?

4:15

He was in Mr. Clinton's administration, President Clinton's administration, I think.

4:21

And how do you, do you know him?

4:23

Well, I met him and that is, I met him through Mr. Epstein.

4:27

And do you, was he, from what you observed, was he a friend or business acquaintance with Mr. Epstein?

4:37

I mean, I only saw him a handful of times, but I did see him with him.

4:43

I mean, he seemed friendly.

4:44

I don't know if I would characterize.

4:46

I mean, having seen him briefly, I don't know how to characterize that.

4:50

Do you know whether he like flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein?

4:53

Did he visit the island?

4:54

Do you know anything about that or their relationship as it relates to that?

4:57

I never, I don't have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the island.

5:03

How about former U.S. Senator George Mitchell?

5:06

Yeah, I do remember George.

5:08

What do you remember about him?

5:09

I traveled with him.

5:10

We went to the most memorable, I went to, well, I was friendly with his wife, start with that, with Heather.

5:19

And Heather was in New York, so I hung out with her a few times.

5:25

I was just friendly, I would say, separately from her husband.

5:30

I was friends with Heather.

5:32

I met Heather through her husband, but we became friends.

5:34

You became friends with Heather.

5:36

Yes.

5:37

Was Mr. Epstein friends with Mr. Mitchell?

5:40

Yes.

5:41

Did they travel together besides New York?

5:44

Did they travel to the island or to New Mexico?

5:47

I don't remember George ever at the island, but the most memorable trip I do recall with Senator was to,

5:53

was to Italy.

5:54

Was to where?

5:55

To Italy.

5:56

Ah, okay.

5:57

We went to Rome.

5:58

As the four of you, so Heather and Mr. Mitchell and you and Mr. Epstein?

6:04

That's my recollection.

6:06

And what were you there for?

6:08

Well, the most memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the Vatican.

6:13

It was extraordinary.

6:15

The most extraordinary thing was going to the archives and holding Henry VIII's document to the Pope, asking his divorce.

6:29

Do you know the former president of Columbia, Andres Pastrana?

6:32

Yes.

6:33

How do you know him?

6:38

I met Andres Pastrana in a pub in Dublin.

6:45

Did he travel with Mr. Epstein that you know?

6:54

I don't know if he ever was on the plane.

7:00

I don't think he ever came to the island.

7:04

But I went to two places with Andres Pastrana.

7:12

One was to Columbia and Epstein came to that.

7:15

And the other was to Cuba and Epstein was there and Pastrana was, I think, was there.

7:21

And what were the purposes of travelling to Columbia and then Cuba?

7:25

I'm a helicopter pilot and Andres is a helicopter pilot.

7:40

And we just became friends and I flew a Black Hawk in Columbia.

7:51

And how about to Cuba?

7:55

I have a friend of mine who was the cigar distributor for Monte Christmas maybe.

8:07

I can't remember which cigar it was.

8:09

And he organized the trip and we met Fidel Castro.

8:16

When was that approximately?

8:30

It had to be 2002, 2003.

8:37

Something like that, I think.

8:39

There's some more names that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions.

8:46

But as far as a catch-all, there's been a tremendous amount of public information about all kinds of names,

8:56

including some of the folks we talked about today and their relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you.

9:04

For any of the folks that we've talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr. Epstein,

9:14

whether with masseuses or with women or girls who were travelling or at the residence that they were at or at the parties that they were at?

9:22

I did not ever at any time see that.

9:26

And for any of the names we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll talk about some more,

9:32

but for today, do you recall having any conversations with anybody else

9:37

where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done,

9:42

whether someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody that observed something?

9:47

If anybody had ever reported anything, first of all the answer to that is no.

9:51

And also I just want to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting like that,

9:58

I would have immediately done something.

10:02

And I never heard it, I never saw it, and no one ever, ever, ever complained to me or tears, nothing like that.

10:08

Okay. All right, so we took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein and his death.

10:14

Oh, bless you. That's okay, take your time.

10:22

So Mr. Epstein and his death.

10:28

So you were not obviously at the MCC during that time, correct?

10:35

Thank you.

10:41

Just take some water, it's okay, no problem.

10:46

You were not at the MCC during that time, correct?

10:48

I was not.

10:49

So you're going to tell us what you believe, but I just want to make sure I understand.

10:57

Your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew him, right?

11:06

And actually there's a third component.

11:08

Okay.

11:09

The answer to that is yes.

11:10

Okay.

11:11

The third component, which is having experienced now the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.

11:27

From BOP?

11:28

Yes.

11:29

Okay, fair.

11:31

What I do want to be careful about is asking you to speculate because anybody can do that and I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion.

11:49

Do you think that, the third point you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP, there's been a lot of, there's an OIG report, there's an STNY investigation about that, do you think he did not die by suicide given all the things we just talked about?

12:09

I do not believe he died by suicide, no.

12:11

And do you believe that, do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?

12:18

No, I don't.

12:20

And I ask that because if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail or that he had kind of a list or that he had reasons to have people hate him, why would somebody kill him in prison?

12:43

In prison, where I am, they will kill you or they will pay, somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.

13:13

So that goes to the third reason, which is kind of the mismanagement or the short fallings or shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons.

13:23

Yes.

13:25

Which is a little bit different than my question, which is, do you think there's somebody on the outside of prison, so putting aside what could happen on the inside, on the outside of prison who wanted him dead so badly that he would have or she would have caused him to be killed on the inside?

13:47

I think that's, I don't see that. I think, is it possible? Of course it's possible, but I don't know of any reason why and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of this. I don't think Epstein had a hit like that. If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation.

14:06

Yeah, so you don't have any reason, first hand knowledge or even speculation it sounds like, to think that he was killed to kind of silence him or to keep him from going public about people he knew about.

14:23

I don't. No, because I think that is just part of the story that's been created that started back in 2008, 2009.

14:37

Yeah, I mean that's the point. I don't think there's value in talking, there's been a lot of information about what happened in the MCC.

14:47

But what is important to me is the idea that he didn't die by suicide. That's one thing, but to the extent that folks believe that he was murdered to keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people, do you have any reason to believe that that's true?

15:10

I do not. I have any reason to believe that and I also think it's ludicrous because if that, I also happen to think if that is what they wanted, they would have had plenty of opportunity when he wasn't in jail.

15:22

If they were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would have been a very easy target.

15:29

In the time, so we've talked about a lot of time all the way up through 2009, 10, and then the time that after Mr. Epstein was arrested, when's the last time you spoke with him?

15:43

Maybe 2016, 2017, maybe 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017, in that area, I believe.

16:02

And what, when you're thinking about that last time, was that you had been talking to him a lot and then you stopped or was that a one-off time and it was infrequent at that point?

16:13

I really wasn't in communication. The only communications I had with him was with regards to the civil suits, the civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation suit I found myself in.

16:23

I needed help. I needed information and I didn't have what I needed.

16:31

And so that was really what drove it was me trying to get myself out of this situation, which ultimately led to where I am today.

16:46

And so when all that, when that, I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that, I think he wasn't, I thought he was angry with me anyway.

16:55

He didn't like what I did and I wasn't interested in what he had to say to me.

17:00

What did you think he was angry with you about?

17:02

I think he was angry that I had even said that I had referred to her being a liar. He said I should have not said anything.

17:15

When the civil suits that were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death, did your lawyers coordinate with his lawyers, like in discovery and things like that?

17:31

I don't think we coordinated in this. I'm not sure. I don't want to misspeak.

17:37

I don't, there was some degree of communication for sure. I just don't know the degree that that took place.

17:46

So definitely, I mean I was definitely hoping for him to be more helpful and I was definitely, coordinating is not a good word because that sounds like I was trying to make a line myself.

17:59

That's not where we were going here. But I was definitely trying to get help as in documents or information that I could use to defend myself.

18:08

That's 100% true. And the degree to which that took place, I don't recall. There was definitely some of that though. I don't want to mislead you.

18:19

We touched on this earlier, but I just want to, I don't think we really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could.

18:28

Going up through that time, you know, so in the 16, 17, 18, up until the time he's arrested, had your view or your understanding of what had happened changed?

18:42

Meaning, did you believe that in the late 90s or early 2000s when he started behaving much differently, did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point?

19:02

My views, I don't like the people he was with anyway. So I don't find, I don't like, I like people my age or older and I don't find the society or the companionship of younger people who are younger people I suppose is really that enjoyable.

19:35

So I don't like the company that he chose to be with. And so I just find it boring and fundamentally uninteresting. It's probably the nicest way I can say it.

19:50

Okay. So I think what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow. Everything was great today. I think that it was very helpful and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can.

20:10

I think tomorrow, you said a few things today about materials that you brought. When we're done, we'll give you a few minutes with Mr. Marcus to, if there's things that you want to show him that you think we should see.

20:26

Like I said, I'm not asking you to corroborate anything. If I was asking you to corroborate something, I would tell you. But if there's something you think that you don't think that the government has seen or you think that it was important for me to see, let Mr. Marcus know and he can share it with me.

20:43

Tomorrow, we'll certainly have some follow on questions when we all think about tonight. And I think you will too. We can all think about stuff we've talked about. We've covered a lot of different areas.

20:57

I do want to talk more about you. So by design today, we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein and talk about everything under the sun that we've gone through today.

21:13

I do think it's important when we all evaluate what you've said today and your story to also understand why you're here. So you were indicted, you were charged, you went to trial.

21:30

And I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to kind of say your piece or to say what you haven't said before. But also understanding that there was people who took the witness stand and swore to tell the truth and testified about you and what you did and what they think you saw and what they heard you say.

21:51

And I said to Mr. Marcus, I'm not trying to create a she said situation or he said she said situation. But I do want to hear from you about your conduct because it's important I think for when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and your recollection of things to also talk about that.

22:21

So we'll do that tomorrow. I want to talk about the circumstances leading up to your arrest. There's a lot of misinformation or there's a lot of information out there that I don't know whether it's misinformation, but about the time from 2019 up until the time that you were arrested.

22:42

And then like I said, that'll take us through lunch tomorrow and then we'll be done. I'm not I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was coming here until this week. So I'm not there isn't like we don't have like a schedule of what happens next or what happens.

23:00

But that's not a negative thing. I'm just saying that that's so so you shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything other than we don't have a next step yet. So may I say something? Of course. Yes.

23:13

I just would like to put out there that I also focused on how I think the president got swept into some of this unnecessarily, by the way. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I certainly don't subscribe to all the all of everything that I see.

23:34

But I do believe that there is animus in some areas that may have contributed to how the use of the president to harm him that I find deeply offensive.

23:51

And whilst I can't obviously say definitively that that is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit. If it needs to be addressed.

24:08

I've seen it. It struck me. And I would like to give it to you. Sure. What it's worth. Okay. Does that seem something that that's fine. Yeah. I don't like. Okay. That's fine. That's great.

24:21

Okay. So why don't we stop for today. I'll give you a little bit of time to chat and then see you in the morning. Thanks.

24:31

This will conclude the recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th. We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The time is three thirty four.

0:00

Good morning. Today is Friday, July 25th. The time is 9 24 a.m. My name is Spencer R.

0:07

Horne. I'm the assistant special agent in charge of FBI New York, and we are here for

0:12

a recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell.

0:15

Good morning. Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. How are you?

0:20

Good morning.

0:21

So the proffer agreement we signed yesterday, I just, there's a place on it for us to all

0:31

kind of initial. It's exactly the same document, and you'll see your signature. If you can

0:36

just initial right to the left of right here, right there, and then Mr. Marcus will initial

0:44

as well. Thank you. And just to kind of, before we get going, I'll just say that exactly the

0:54

same folks that were here when we met yesterday are here today. So there's no, I'm not going

1:01

to do formal introductions because it's exactly the same group of folks. So we're continuing,

1:10

Ms. Maxwell, our discussion of yesterday, and the same kind of rules apply. If you will

1:19

take breaks, if you need to talk to Mr. Marcus or your lawyers, no, absolutely no problem.

1:25

Just let me know. I'll try to ask my questions in a coherent manner, but if there's anything

1:31

that I say that's confusing, definitely interrupt me.

1:36

I will. Thank you.

1:38

So I think the easiest thing to start with is, is there anything that we talked about

1:46

yesterday that we're going to go through some more names? I think that's one of the places

1:52

that we interrupted just because there's a lot of names. But aside from additional names,

1:59

is there anything that you wanted to kind of follow up on that we talked about yesterday

2:03

or anything that you thought maybe you remember more of or not?

2:09

Some more names did come to me in the night, and I did have some additional memories just

2:19

for clarity. I believe I said that I couldn't think of anybody who I may have asked from

2:27

Mar-a-Lago, but then I realized that the allegation at least is that I met s*** in Mar-a-Lago,

2:36

so I felt that I needed to address that, and I didn't want to leave that hanging because

2:40

that seems weird under circumstances. And also, but I couldn't remember anyone that

2:46

maybe, you know, it's a long period of time. So the issue is not that I'm trying to not

2:50

say, but I just don't remember anybody that I would have, but it's not impossible that

2:56

I might have asked someone.

2:59

I don't know exactly what you said yesterday, but I don't think what you said yesterday

3:04

is different than what you just said. So, yes, there's...

3:07

Okay, okay. I just wanted to be, I just didn't want to feel that I had said no to something

3:11

and that it didn't...

3:13

Definitely has said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago and that you received a treatment

3:20

from her at some point and that you recruited her to meet Mr. Epstein. Do you know affirmatively

3:26

whether that's true or false, or do you just not have a memory either way?

3:31

I really don't believe it's true, but I know that I did go to spas, and if I met someone

3:38

I did ask if they're home, so I don't... In the realms of possibility, it could have,

3:44

but I have no memory of it, and I don't believe that it's how it went down, but I don't want

3:49

to believe it's true.

3:50

Okay, so I want to talk about, we talked a little bit yesterday about the financial part

3:56

of your relationship with Mr. Epstein, kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better

4:01

word, for many, many years, starting around $25,000 and ending up at around $250,000 per

4:08

year. There's, as you know from your trial, there's banking information that shows a ton

4:15

of money being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years, in I think totaling something

4:24

like $30 million, something like this. What's the... Why was that money sent to you? Like

4:33

what was that for?

4:34

Well, first of all, I don't... I dispute the characterization that the money was sent to

4:40

me.

4:40

Okay, so tell me what... I am stuck with the witnesses at trial and what was sent at trial

4:47

on that issue, so what do you dispute about that?

4:53

Well, I believe... I don't have full recollection. I'm not even sure I ever saw what they accused

4:59

me of, but my belief is that that money also contained money that was for a helicopter,

5:07

for instance, that I never owned and I was never mine and...

5:15

In other words, money was sent to you that you then used to purchase things or...

5:19

Well, I'm not even sure that I purchased it, so the accounts, those accounts would be controlled

5:24

by his accountants and...

5:27

Even accounts in your name, you're saying, or one of your entities?

5:30

Well, I'm not even sure I knew of all the entities. Maybe I did contemporaneously, but

5:37

I simply wouldn't know today, so if there was an entity, let's say account X, if I really

5:45

set that up myself or whether they said we're doing this and the money's coming or whatever,

5:49

but in no substantive way, I can't think of the right word...

5:56

Did you have control of it?

5:57

I had no control, is what I'm saying.

5:58

So when the government, when there was testimony or the government admitted evidence that showed,

6:04

for example, five million dollars in 2002 coming from Epstein to you, what you're saying

6:14

is that that happened, but that the you there wasn't money, he wasn't giving you money?

6:21

I'm not going to say that for everything, because maybe there were accounts that money

6:26

was sent to me, but I can say that I've no... Like the helicopter, I can definitively say.

6:33

I'd have to look at all of them to be accurate for you, but to explain how or why I could

6:42

be receiving money, and I certainly did, so I'm not disputing all of it.

6:46

When you say that, let's go back and look at why did money have to go into your accounts

6:52

or account that was controlled by others, but in your name to purchase a helicopter?

6:57

Oh, that's a very good question. I'm not sure I know the answer to that. I don't...

7:06

So let me ask this maybe a different way that gets to the issue, right? So the accusation

7:14

by the government based upon the evidence they collected, is that Epstein paid you millions

7:21

and millions of dollars over the years, and the reason why he paid you that is because

7:24

you were performing an extraordinary service for him by recruiting young women, many of

7:31

whom were underage, so that he could sexually abuse them. That's their allegation.

7:44

From what you said yesterday and from what I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he

7:50

paid for a lot in your life. Your flights, where you stayed with him. He didn't expect

7:57

you to reimburse him along the way for food, so he took care of you for many years.

8:03

On top of that, he actually paid you a salary, as we talked about, $25,000 to $250,000. What

8:09

else did he give you? What purchase? Was there a time when he gave you a million dollars

8:15

or $500,000 as a bonus? What financial benefit did you receive from him? Besides what we've

8:22

already talked about, we don't have to talk about what...

8:24

Oh yeah, I got it, I got it. So my goal always was to become independent, independently financially

8:35

secure and work for myself. I've never been one to not work. And in that regard, over

8:43

the course of my friendship and my working relationship with Epstein, I expressed to

8:53

him my desire to be independent of him everywhere, just to be freestanding. And with that in

9:02

mind, I wanted to have my own businesses or my own money coming in, independent and separate

9:12

from any salary that I received from him. And I needed that for my self-esteem. I've

9:19

never been... I mean, obviously salary, and it was a very generous one. Please, I'm not

9:25

belittling the sum of money because it's huge, but I was brought up to work and I was brought

9:32

up to be my own. The first time, so I would either propose businesses to him or he would

9:43

actually suggest, why didn't I do something? And the first deal that we did or the first

9:49

business that we had or I had and that he financed for me, so he gave me, he lent me

9:57

all the money to enable me to do this. And then I reap the profits, which I don't remember

10:03

now because we varied over the deals that we did that I would give him 50% or 25. It

10:09

was sort of, it was random. And I can tell you what it is. So it was in Palm Beach, actually,

10:18

and it was in real estate. And they sold what was the grounds originally of an estate called

10:25

the Phipps Estate. And then they converted the land that came with that estate into houses.

10:33

And I did, I think two or maybe three, I can't remember now, but certainly one and maybe

10:41

two, possibly three. I don't think so. I think two that then were flipped and there

10:48

was a profit. So that would be an example of that. But I didn't have the money. So

10:53

he lent me the funds to do that business transaction and then I reap the profits.

10:59

And so, but when a financial investigator, like the FBI looks at accounts, they don't

11:08

know kind of the conversations you're having. They just see the money. So in those cases

11:13

when that happened, when he financed that with you, would he send money to you? So does

11:19

that explain some of the money? I believe, I think it does. I think, for instance, there

11:25

were two gullwing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and Aston Martin. You can look up,

11:32

I think, if I'm right, that had the doors that would come up like this, that were only

11:38

very limited number that were made. So I knew that we could get those and flip them right

11:44

within 24 hours, for example. Also, my, here's another example of something that you guys

11:54

wouldn't have known about is I became a banker. I got my Series 63 and Series 67 banking

12:03

license and became a broker for like a new, because I was day trading. Everything I had

12:10

I day traded through an account. And I think I was lucky more than smart, but I made quite

12:17

a lot of money doing that. When was that? That's again, that's in the 90s again. I

12:26

think, you can find it, it'll be my banking license, right? That'll be something that

12:30

you can look up, probably. So whatever that is, it is. And I just don't remember when

12:37

that is, I'm sorry. So, okay. And so for example, I was doing really, really, really well. And

12:44

so he was like, how do you do that? Why are you investing in, I don't know, Apple when

12:51

nobody liked Apple? This is before Apple or Microsoft. I didn't know Bill Gates, so this

12:57

is not related to him. But my family-

13:01

Don't charge with inside of it.

13:03

No, I'm not trying to suggest that. Oh, goodness, please no.

13:08

It was just a joke at the beginning.

13:12

But going back to my family, my dad had given me an account when I was 12. And I had always

13:25

an interest in business and finance. Not very sophisticated, I'm not suggesting that. And

13:32

so I liked to trade. And so I did. And I did well. And so then I would tell him what I

13:39

was doing. Now whether he did or he didn't, he told me he matched me in some other accounts

13:44

that he had. Because he did a lot of, my observation, to go back to what he did, I observed him

13:50

personally and have recollection, personal recollection of him trading money a lot. Tens

13:59

of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars.

14:02

That was, that he was trading for other people or that was his own money?

14:06

I want also to clarify something for you, or clarify or underline. Wexner was, in my

14:14

opinion, his closest friend in this time period from when I met him in 91, right? All the

14:23

way until, oh, I don't know, because I wasn't that friendly with, well, I did travel with

14:33

Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told me that Wexner didn't want to be seen too much with me because

14:42

of my family problems.

14:46

You mean the problems that your father's company had with embezzlement or allegations of?

14:53

Yes, yes, that's what I'm talking about. And now actually today, not contemporaneously,

14:59

but today I don't believe that that's even true. I think it was used as a means to not

15:05

have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It was just a way to park me. And I believe

15:13

that now because within the discovery there was a lot of, well not a lot, but there was

15:18

some indications that he would actively tell other people to lie to me or conceal things

15:23

from me and that he never loved me and I wasn't his type. That's in the discovery somewhere.

15:31

So okay, so the government had evidence that even as late as 2007, he paid you a lot of

15:43

money.

15:46

What was that?

15:47

Like several millions and millions of dollars in 2007. 7.4 million dollars, I think.

15:53

What was that for? Was that the helicopter?

15:55

That was my question to you.

15:56

Oh sorry.

15:57

I don't know. So in 2007, in 2007, that was what?

16:02

That could have been the helicopter, the Sikorsky. Those big chunks like that, I don't personally

16:09

have any memory of receiving a check from him for 7 million dollars. I just don't.

16:16

But I would have to, I know, so the answer to your question, to be precise...

16:23

Well you would remember if it went into your pocket and it was...

16:25

He never paid me for services that you just described, 7 million dollars for any nefarious

16:34

reason.

16:35

Yeah, I think I understand what you've said about being on the payroll and him helping

16:40

you with businesses and giving you a lot of life things along the way. You travel with

16:47

him, you eat with him. But there is these massive amounts of money, one-time payments

16:55

that I...

16:56

You'd have to trace that, right? So I don't believe that came into my account or I had

17:00

any control. I have no memory of that.

17:04

Well but if there's records that show it coming to your account, it sounds like what you're

17:07

saying is that you have no memory of that money being yours. That money is not somewhere...

17:15

No, I wouldn't be like, oh yippie, let me go, I've got 7 million dollars, I'm going

17:18

to go buy myself a yacht. Or something else, or move it to some other... No. I don't think

17:26

if you look, you'll have to check. Obviously you will. I don't think you'll find that money

17:33

moving to any account other than mine or... It shouldn't show, I don't believe anyway,

17:39

as far as I regulate, wouldn't show me spending it. Does that make sense?

17:44

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't think there's any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers

17:51

at trial, that that money went in.

17:54

Oh, 7 million dollars in when? What year?

17:56

Well there's several years, in 2007.

17:59

And?

18:00

2002, there was 5 million dollars that you were paid in 2002.

18:05

Oh, well I'd have to, I don't remember. So there would be another large sum, but it wouldn't

18:12

have come from him later.

18:13

The biggest one was in 1999, there was over 18 million, 18.3 million. But what you're

18:26

saying it sounds like, and then if you don't know, we can move on, but when we're talking

18:32

about 18.3 million in 1999, 5 million three years later in 2002, 7.4 million in 2007,

18:43

that money adds up to around 30 million dollars. You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein, meaning

18:49

that's not money you received for your benefit, even if it was put into your accounts.

18:53

I don't believe any of that was my money. Now, I do, just like I said, we did do these

18:58

things with the cars. I don't know if any of that money, some of it, if it moves, some

19:06

of that may have come from the car or a house that was sold that I had interested with him.

19:11

That's possible. But I don't think this money is mine.

19:14

But also, the record should reflect too, that there were times Gillen's name was used, for

19:19

example, Air Gillen. Her name was in the name of the entity, it had nothing to do with her,

19:24

and if you pulled signatures, there's no evidence.

19:30

What I'm trying to just make sure that I understand is that the idea that you were paid 30 million

19:38

dollars between 1999 and 2007 in order to, by Mr. Epstein, to reward you for recruiting

19:46

young women, that is, you're saying that is categorically completely false.

19:51

That is categorically false.

20:02

I want to, we went through several individuals yesterday, and I want to go through just a

20:15

couple of more names and ask if you know them, and if you do know them, how you know them.

20:24

Do you know Elon Musk?

20:26

I do.

20:27

And how did you meet Mr. Musk?

20:30

I met him in, I don't remember the year, but it's going to be in, I don't remember the

20:38

year, 2010, 11, something like that, I think, if my memory serves. And I was at an event

20:51

for Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, and Sergey had arranged for, it was for his birthday,

21:03

and we were, a bunch of us, I don't even remember how many we were, but not many of us, maybe

21:10

if I say 40, I could be wrong, if it was 30 or 50, I don't remember, I'm sorry. Went to

21:21

another friend's island, somebody called Mr. Bigotse in the Caribbean, and not with Epstein,

21:30

he was not there to celebrate Sergey's birthday, and we were there together for, I want to

21:38

say, three or four days, something like that, in my memory, and Mr. Musk was a present for

21:44

that.

21:45

And that was the first time you met him, as far as you know?

21:48

As far as I remember, yes.

21:50

Did you meet, did you know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother?

21:55

I don't know if I've ever met him. I know that he has a brother, and, but I don't think

22:02

I met him.

22:03

Aside from that time, around 2010, on the island of the Caribbean for a couple of days,

22:10

did you, have you seen, do you know Mr. Musk beyond that time?

22:15

We met, I was at the Oscars, and we met at the Oscars.

22:19

What year was that, earlier or later?

22:22

It was post that event, I believe.

22:26

And do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk?

22:29

I believe they did, and the only reason I say that is not from my memory, but because

22:34

I saw, I think I saw, my memory is that in Discovery, they were communicating on email.

22:42

So you have no personal knowledge of that, it's just what you've seen from the press

22:47

or from Discovery?

22:48

And I believe his brother as well, actually.

22:51

Excuse me?

22:52

Mr. Musk's brother as well.

22:55

But I, like I said, my memory is not as good as I would like it to be, and I just want

23:03

to say that.

23:05

Do you, you mentioned I think yesterday in passing, well not in passing, but as part

23:10

of another answer, Andrew Cuomo.

23:13

Yes.

23:14

Did you know Mr. Cuomo?

23:16

Well only because he was married to Kerry.

23:20

Yes, okay.

23:21

And I think I knew his brother as well, what's his, he has a brother, right, he's on TV,

23:27

what's his name?

23:28

Um.

23:29

Right, Christopher.

23:30

Come on.

23:31

Chris.

23:32

Yeah, you mean the TV, the former TV anchor, or the TV anchor, Chris Cuomo?

23:36

Yes, yes.

23:37

Okay.

23:38

So, but I would say just socially, not, I'm not close friends or anything, but because

23:43

we, I was friends with Kerry and I met him a few times and I've certainly met his brother

23:48

as well a few times.

23:52

And the same questions that I asked about Mr. Musk, do you know whether Mr. Epstein

23:56

knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or Ms. Kennedy, your friend?

24:03

Um, I don't think so.

24:06

And so you never, you don't recall any of those three individuals like flying on Mr.

24:12

Epstein's plane or visiting him in Palm Beach or at the island?

24:16

No.

24:17

Um, I think you mentioned former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday, but if not,

24:22

do you know Mr. Kerry or not?

24:24

I've met him, but I don't know if Mr. Epstein ever met him.

24:29

Well, really, I can't even properly characterize that as a meeting, but I was very, very involved

24:36

in the ocean at work through the, you asked me yesterday about Terima, and if I recall

24:45

right, I met Mr. Secretary that way through the ocean, but he wouldn't know who I am,

24:50

I doubt.

24:53

Do you know whether, well, do you know former Senator Ted Kennedy?

24:58

Yes.

25:00

And does, is that through your own life or through Mr. Epstein?

25:05

My life.

25:06

Do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy?

25:09

I don't believe so.

25:11

And so for the folks we just talked about, so former Secretary of State John Kerry, Ted

25:16

Kennedy, did, you don't know whether Mr. Epstein knew him, so I take that to mean you have

25:23

no recollection of them flying on his planes or visiting him?

25:27

I don't know about that, but Bobby Kennedy knew him, Bobby the Health.

25:36

Sorry, say that again about Bobby Kennedy?

25:38

Bobby knew Mr. Epstein.

25:39

How do you know that?

25:40

Because we went on a trip together, we went to dinosaur bone hunting in the Dakotas.

25:53

When was that, you know, approximately, I'm not looking for an exact date, but when was

25:57

that?

25:58

That was early, that was in the early, well, let me back up, I knew Bobby's wife, Mary,

26:08

pretty well actually, and before he met her.

26:13

Just to help us, I know we're talking about a wide span of time, but what are you talking

26:18

about that you knew Mr. Kennedy's wife before they were married, so when are we talking

26:26

about that?

26:28

I, in nineteen, let's get my head straight, well, would this have been before you met

26:39

Mr. Epstein?

26:40

Yes, I met him before I met him.

26:43

So we're talking about the 1980s?

26:44

Oh yes, thank you, the 80s.

26:47

So we're talking about the 1980s, and then?

26:52

I had a very, very long-standing boyfriend, and his brother was dating Mary at the time,

27:03

and we were all good friends.

27:05

And then Mr. Epstein, did Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you?

27:14

I don't think so, because Mr. Epstein, surprisingly, everyone says everything happens through me,

27:23

that's just not true.

27:24

I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he had friends from London, and those were

27:29

very, they were what the people would call fancy, they were fancy people.

27:37

But he had the same types of relationships before I met him in America.

27:44

So when I met him, he was already, you know, Wexner, and he had Henry, and he had, he

27:51

was, I don't know if then he was in the Council of Foreign Relations, but he was friends with

27:56

Ace, and, you know, like, he was, he was well-established, he didn't need me, and he was, you know,

28:05

he was, Eva was, you know, a major model, so he had all these modeling connections and

28:12

friends in that business that, long before I met him.

28:19

And so the trip that you went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy, was that in the

28:25

90s, in 2000s?

28:26

I think it was in the, it would have been in the, I want to say 93, 94.

28:35

Okay.

28:36

So a very long time ago.

28:38

A very, very long time ago.

28:41

A few years into the, your relationship, a few years into the time that you knew Mr.

28:46

Epstein.

28:47

Yes.

28:48

I mean, I don't want to hold myself to the dates, because I really...

28:51

No, no, I'm not holding you to dates.

28:52

I think...

28:53

Because I really do.

28:54

I've said that a lot, because I appreciate we're talking about the 80s and 90s, and even

28:57

the 2000s.

28:58

And I just want you to know, I haven't had any, I don't have anything to review, so I

29:03

haven't had any ability to, short of my legal material, obviously, which you can, you know

29:08

I have, because I came with a box work, but short of that, I have nothing with which to

29:12

refresh, or very limited stuff, I should say, I don't want to say nothing, to refresh my

29:17

mind.

29:18

Understand that.

29:19

Do you have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy, of there being anything inappropriate with

29:23

Mr. Kennedy and masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked about?

29:32

I never saw anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy.

29:36

Do you know whether he ever got a massage from one of the masseuses?

29:40

Do you know either way?

29:41

I do not.

29:42

But not something you remember?

29:44

I mean, absolutely not.

29:46

I mean, he, well, I mean, yesterday, if I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate it.

29:51

I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age.

30:01

I never saw inappropriate, but now, I'm not, I'm not going to say your hands or, I mean,

30:10

that to me is not inappropriate now.

30:12

Somebody's inappropriate and mine may be different, but I'm not talking about anything that resembles

30:19

the accusations that were discussed here, so that would be a flat note to any man.

30:28

Did your or Mr. Epstein's relationship with Mr., with Bobby Kennedy continue into the

30:32

2000s as far as you know?

30:35

I would say yes.

30:38

Well, mine, yes.

30:41

Yours with you?

30:42

With me for sure.

30:43

And do you know whether Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy continue to have relationships

30:49

into the 2000s?

30:50

I have no personal knowledge of that.

30:52

I mean, I would, because here's another thing is that everyone puts us together like a monolith.

31:00

He literally had a separate life from me.

31:02

I literally had a separate life from him.

31:05

Now, did they say, well, of course they did.

31:07

I'm not crazy, but he kept a lot to himself and he didn't like to share.

31:12

He was not a sharer, or at least not with me.

31:14

Mr. Epstein didn't share your thing?

31:15

Not with me, no.

31:17

Did you, do you know somebody named Cheryl Mills?

31:21

I do.

31:22

Used to work in the White House as a lawyer.

31:24

How do you know Ms. Mills?

31:25

I met Ms. Mills through President Clinton.

31:30

Do you remember generally the timeframe that you met her?

31:35

I do, actually.

31:36

Sorry, I'm just trying to remember.

31:49

I'm trying to get my dates right.

31:52

Approximately.

31:53

Well, okay, I can't get my dates right.

31:56

It's something you probably can, but it's going to be in the early 2000s.

32:00

Okay.

32:01

So I don't recall.

32:02

I think I wanted to say 2002.

32:06

So it was after President Clinton left office.

32:10

Oh, yes.

32:11

And so it was in the 2000s.

32:14

Definitely.

32:15

And how did you meet her?

32:16

What were the circumstances under which you met Ms. Mills?

32:19

I went on a trip with the President to South America.

32:23

With which President?

32:24

Oh, sorry, President Clinton.

32:27

Sorry.

32:28

I just wanted to make sure it was clear.

32:30

Okay, so you went on a trip to where?

32:33

Latin America.

32:35

And who, and so Ms. Mills was on that trip?

32:38

She was.

32:39

And President Clinton was on that trip?

32:41

He was.

32:42

Who else was on that trip?

32:43

Duff Band.

32:46

Who worked with President Clinton?

32:48

Yes.

32:49

And was Mr. Epstein?

32:52

No.

32:53

And what was the purpose of that trip?

32:56

Well, the President had been...

33:01

I mean, the President met with...

33:08

I can't even remember all the presidents.

33:12

Was this part of President Clinton's work after he left office with his foundation?

33:18

Or was it something for him?

33:21

I don't remember when the Clinton Global Initiative started.

33:25

So if you give me that date, I can tell you if it was pre or post.

33:29

Because without that, I can't pin the reason.

33:33

Do you remember what it was for or not?

33:35

No, I don't recall.

33:36

Don't overthink or underthink the reason for my questions.

33:40

I don't have any idea why you went on that trip.

33:43

I don't know an answer that I'm keeping for you.

33:45

No, I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible and give you the information that you see.

33:49

Do you remember why you were invited to go?

33:52

Were you friends with somebody?

33:54

What was your role going on that trip?

33:57

I didn't have a role.

33:58

So do you remember why...

34:03

Do you remember who invited you to go?

34:06

Probably Doug Band.

34:12

And how did you know Doug?

34:16

Because Doug, again, was back with Philip Levine.

34:23

And do you know whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein?

34:26

Who?

34:27

Doug.

34:29

I don't know.

34:31

I mean, nothing.

34:33

I don't believe there was any relationship other than I helped.

34:37

Well, without me, I don't think there would have been those flights

34:40

because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide the plane for...

34:46

Well, certainly I remember the one to Africa, of course, that big trip.

34:53

And I thought it was an honour and a privilege to be part of something so amazing

35:00

and to have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I found truly extraordinary.

35:08

And please, I don't mean it in any other way other than there's a form of fantastic expression.

35:15

So I was asking around the question, but I was asking...

35:18

Were you basically asked to go because you were kind of responsible for the plane?

35:24

Responsible is the wrong word.

35:26

They were able to use you to make sure that they could...

35:29

You helped them get Mr. Epstein's plane for the trip?

35:32

No, I don't even know if when I was on that...

35:34

In fact, I think that trip...

35:38

I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the President.

35:41

I think this is...

35:43

If I'm right, and I think I am,

35:45

I think that trip happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even...

35:49

Not that they'd never met because Epstein had gone to the White House,

35:51

but they had not met...

35:53

I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then because they'd never met and it would be weird.

35:57

But they met because of me and the plane was because of me.

36:01

But that trip was the first, I think, the first trip I took with the ex-President

36:08

and I don't believe Epstein and he had met.

36:12

We're talking a time period when I was trying to leave.

36:18

Not very successfully, obviously,

36:20

but I was branching out on my own and being more independent of Mr. Epstein

36:27

and trying to hide all kinds of businesses that I was into.

36:34

I was trying to start the first telehealth medicine with the Cleveland Clinic.

36:38

I mean, I'm not going to bore you because I don't think

36:40

that's what you guys are interested in,

36:42

but those were the sorts of things that I was looking for him to finance

36:46

so that I could stop being general manager of a hotel.

36:53

Did you take other trips with some or all of those individuals

37:00

without Mr. Epstein in later years?

37:03

You said that was the first time that you had been on something like that

37:09

and it was an honor and you were spending time with former President Clinton

37:13

and others.

37:15

Over the years, did you do that more than once?

37:17

Yes.

37:20

We'll talk about those.

37:22

Like multiple times?

37:23

Like too many to count?

37:24

Or three or four times?

37:25

How many times?

37:26

A lot.

37:29

I went on a lot of trips.

37:30

Now, I don't recall all of them,

37:33

not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything,

37:37

I just don't remember them all.

37:39

After a while, you know in the incredible job that you have,

37:43

all of you, that when you're so high-pressured

37:46

and you're spending so much time with extraordinary people

37:49

like you do with President Trump,

37:52

it can blur.

37:54

It just does.

37:56

And there's a few things that stand out because at the end,

37:59

it's all just extraordinary.

38:01

There's cars and sirens and presidents.

38:06

Okay.

38:09

So I understand, but talk,

38:13

so don't give me specific,

38:14

understand you can't give specific numbers.

38:17

Describe more about kind of that part of your life

38:20

and your relationship.

38:22

I'm using relationship.

38:23

You don't like relationship.

38:24

I don't.

38:25

Sorry.

38:26

My employer.

38:27

Yes.

38:28

So just describe what you were doing

38:31

with those individuals.

38:35

So when I say those individuals,

38:36

I'm talking about former President Clinton, Doug,

38:40

other folks that work with him.

38:42

Yes, there were loads of them.

38:43

And all of them, you know the team.

38:45

I don't need to give you all the names.

38:47

You have them at your fingertips.

38:49

And I can confirm if you give me names,

38:52

I'll say yes,

38:53

because they're not all going to pop into my head.

38:54

Right.

38:55

Okay.

38:56

So I started spending a lot of time,

38:59

I don't want to characterize that,

39:01

I started spending time with the former president

39:04

and with Doug and his team.

39:07

And I had no purpose really,

39:12

other than I had,

39:16

I obviously offered something.

39:20

I don't know.

39:21

Ideas of, I don't know.

39:24

Anyway, and he started to travel.

39:30

I don't remember if the first trip was Africa

39:33

or how it went.

39:34

But at some point, I think there was actually two trips,

39:37

but I'm not sure.

39:38

So it was to Europe and then to Africa.

39:45

I think maybe it was all one trip.

39:47

And at some point, Mr. Epstein said he didn't want

39:52

to go on the trip and he was going somewhere else

39:57

and he just left.

39:59

And I was like, well, okay.

40:01

And so I ended up doing the whole trip

40:03

without Mr. Epstein or his plane.

40:07

And when you were traveling with them,

40:12

what were the purposes of the trips?

40:14

Like, is this one?

40:16

I think these were all, I think actually was the AIDS,

40:20

was one of the primary ones for his AIDS foundation

40:24

when he was working to do that.

40:27

And they were always a humanitarian side to the trips.

40:32

And we went to Egypt and that was, oh, yeah.

40:39

So it sounds like you're describing one,

40:43

right now, one trip with lots of stops.

40:46

It could be, but I have a feeling

40:47

that I went on other trips, but I can't remember.

40:50

When you went on...

40:53

I went to London.

40:54

I went to London.

40:55

I don't know if that's the same trip.

40:57

When you went on these trips,

41:01

were you always on Mr. Epstein's plane

41:04

or did you sometimes accompany them on a different plane?

41:07

Correct, yes.

41:09

How many were on Mr. Epstein's plane?

41:11

Again, I'm not holding you to exact, but...

41:13

That was a full, that was packed

41:15

because there was a lot of secret service.

41:17

It took all the secret service as well.

41:19

So it was, whatever the detail is for secret service,

41:22

it's a lot.

41:25

And on how many occasions,

41:27

besides the trip you just described,

41:29

were there other times when they used,

41:32

when President Clinton and the folks he was with

41:35

used Mr. Epstein's plane?

41:37

I think it was, there was twice, maybe.

41:40

There was that, but it will reflect on the logs.

41:42

There won't be anything that's not on the logs

41:44

that you have already.

41:45

Were you, by the way, responsible for the logs in any way?

41:48

Like, you've seen the logs and they're public

41:49

and you have them in Discovery,

41:51

but over the years when you were working with

41:54

or for Mr. Epstein, did you have access to the logs?

41:57

I wasn't, no, never.

42:00

The pilots, the log book was their personal log book.

42:03

I never even saw them have it.

42:05

I never saw them fill it in.

42:07

And then there was a second set of logs,

42:10

the flight manifests,

42:14

and I never saw those either.

42:16

I was never allowed, I suppose,

42:18

because they don't want me to see.

42:25

Do you know, so do you know whether

42:28

Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship

42:32

with President Clinton

42:34

different from the way you just described?

42:36

So different than being with him

42:39

with respect to his foundation or something like this?

42:41

I would say no.

42:45

When's the last time that you went on a trip

42:49

or saw President Clinton?

42:51

It was in, it was late,

42:55

2008, 2000, I don't know,

43:06

16, 17, 18, something.

43:09

It was in Los Angeles.

43:11

And what was the purpose of that meeting?

43:14

He was hosting something or he was at an event

43:17

and I was in May and I had dinner with him.

43:25

Did you ever meet Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton?

43:31

Yes.

43:33

When did you meet her?

43:35

I want to say,

43:44

again, please don't hold me to it,

43:46

but I want to say

43:48

it was on a flight

43:52

that came from the island,

43:56

not from the island,

43:57

from the Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard

44:00

back to New York is what I think.

44:02

I might be wrong.

44:04

Okay, so an east coast island

44:07

like Nantucket or something like this?

44:09

The ex-president never came to the island.

44:12

And did you,

44:14

is that the only time that you met Hillary Clinton?

44:17

No.

44:18

I went to the house in Chappaqua a few times.

44:21

And why did you go to the house?

44:23

I was invited.

44:25

Just to see President Clinton

44:28

or Hillary Clinton or both?

44:30

Yeah, I mean, as a friend.

44:33

There was no,

44:36

I don't remember any reason.

44:38

Why, though, was somehow I communicated

44:40

that was in coming, driving back past Chappaqua

44:43

if they were home and stopping.

44:45

I know it sounds a little flippant,

44:47

but it could have been even something as...

44:50

And do you know whether Mr. Epstein

44:53

had knew or had any sort of business dealings

44:56

or associated with Hillary Clinton?

44:59

I would say no.

45:01

Did you ever see them together?

45:03

No.

45:04

Did, do you know whether

45:07

Epstein ever did any business transactions

45:09

with the Clintons?

45:11

I would, well,

45:13

I'm not sure how to quite,

45:17

I don't know the answer to that strictly.

45:20

Because I was,

45:23

I was part of the beginning process

45:26

of the Clinton Global Initiative.

45:29

And that was something that

45:32

I helped with.

45:34

And that was me.

45:36

And Epstein may have helped me

45:38

help them.

45:39

And in that context,

45:41

he may well have involved himself,

45:44

but only in the context of

45:46

something that I was trying to do.

45:49

So when you say involved himself,

45:52

meaning like give money to

45:55

the Clinton Global Initiative

45:57

or something like this?

45:58

Well, so there's that.

46:00

I think he did do that.

46:01

And that, I believe,

46:02

the money that he may have given

46:03

could have been independent of me.

46:05

But I think it's just easier

46:08

if I just tell you how it happened

46:10

rather than,

46:11

otherwise it sounds,

46:12

sounds all odd and funky.

46:14

I went to Davos

46:17

with the former president.

46:19

And I,

46:22

have you been to Davos?

46:27

In what?

46:28

Have you been to Davos?

46:29

I have not.

46:30

OK, well, you know it's a,

46:31

you know what it is, right?

46:32

OK, so,

46:34

and I was,

46:36

I thought that the former president

46:39

should have his own Davos

46:41

because it would be,

46:44

and they had,

46:45

it turned out that

46:46

they had been thinking about it anyway.

46:48

And so we were talking about it.

46:50

And, you know, it's a very heavy lift

46:53

to get something like that to go.

46:55

And I was friendly with

46:58

one of the people who had,

47:01

I don't know if he was at the beginning of Davos

47:04

or,

47:05

but he was running Davos.

47:06

So it was just,

47:07

I don't know how to describe

47:08

his actual role at Davos.

47:10

And I had conversations with him

47:11

about what did he think,

47:13

you know,

47:14

just because I was having dinner with him

47:16

about if Clinton could get something like that

47:19

to go with his thoughts.

47:20

And he was very, very enthusiastic.

47:22

I mean, he was like,

47:23

that's just an incredible idea.

47:25

So I put them together.

47:27

What's that person's name?

47:28

Do you remember?

47:29

I knew you were going to ask me.

47:30

OK.

47:31

I can, I can,

47:33

I just,

47:34

you said,

47:35

I didn't know if you knew his,

47:36

if you remember his name.

47:37

I do, but I just,

47:38

can't remember his name.

47:39

It will come to me.

47:40

It may come to me tomorrow,

47:42

but eventually these things like surface

47:44

like in the middle of the night

47:45

I was scribbling names

47:46

that I couldn't remember from yesterday.

47:48

OK.

47:49

But his name will come to me.

47:50

And if not, we can find it.

47:52

So, so you, when the,

47:55

just still staying on your relationship with,

47:59

sorry,

48:00

your association with the Clintons,

48:03

you were part of the ramp up

48:06

or the startup of the Clinton Global Initiative

48:08

and helping them and supporting that effort.

48:11

I was.

48:12

I would say very, very central to that, yes.

48:16

And Mr. Epstein,

48:19

was he part of the work around that

48:24

or just in support of you?

48:27

He supported me to help them,

48:30

but then I think he may have tried

48:33

to use that to insert himself in some way

48:36

that would not have surprised me at all.

48:38

And I know that he was annoying

48:42

and sometimes I could catch him on the phone

48:44

and he wouldn't always agree

48:45

with what I wanted to do.

48:46

And I was like,

48:47

it's not your idea.

48:48

I don't really care what you think.

48:49

But I didn't go over so well.

48:54

And I just want to say

48:56

it wasn't my idea for his CGA.

48:58

It wasn't your CGA?

48:59

It's not my idea.

49:00

They had had that idea before.

49:02

I just helped bring key personnel.

49:04

You're saying the idea of President Clinton

49:06

kind of having his own Davos.

49:08

I'm not owning that.

49:09

I didn't.

49:10

I'm trying to elevate myself

49:13

in any form of importance here.

49:14

No, I understand.

49:15

Okay.

49:16

Did you go to Davos with President Clinton

49:19

more than once or just once?

49:21

Once for sure.

49:24

And I think maybe twice,

49:25

but I don't remember.

49:31

And I think you said

49:33

you're not aware of President Clinton

49:36

ever going to the island.

49:38

He never went.

49:39

Absolutely never went.

49:40

And I can be sure of that

49:41

because there's no way he would have gone.

49:43

I don't believe there's any way

49:44

that he would have gone to the island

49:46

had I not been there.

49:47

Because I don't believe

49:48

he had an independent friendship,

49:50

if you will, with Epstein.

49:52

Did he speak?

49:53

Did he go on the boat?

49:54

Yes, but that's very different

49:55

from going to spend time on the island.

49:58

Plus, the story as told

50:00

is so patently absurd

50:03

that I flew him in the helicopter.

50:05

I am a helicopter pilot.

50:06

That is true.

50:07

But the notion of me flying

50:09

an ex-president on a machine

50:11

terrifies me.

50:12

I would never even take that responsibility.

50:14

Can you imagine?

50:16

Yeah, no.

50:17

I'm not.

50:18

No.

50:19

Did you ever go with President Clinton

50:22

to any of Mr. Epstein's properties?

50:26

So like New Mexico, Palm Beach,

50:29

or in New York?

50:31

I have no memory of him

50:34

in any of those places.

50:36

When you were in London

50:37

with President Clinton,

50:39

did you ever go to your flat with him?

50:44

I don't think he did.

50:46

I don't think so,

50:48

because he wouldn't even be able

50:51

to carry all his secret service with him.

50:54

I don't think so, no.

50:57

We talked a little about

51:04

the Duchess of York,

51:05

Sarah Ferguson, yesterday.

51:07

When's the last time you saw her?

51:16

Were you with her,

51:21

hanging out with her,

51:22

socializing with her

51:23

in the 90s, 2000s, both?

51:26

I don't know if she liked me very much.

51:40

I think my friendship with her ex-husband,

51:45

sometimes she really did like me,

51:52

and sometimes she didn't.

51:53

So maybe a friend of me?

51:55

I don't know.

51:56

It was always friendly when we were together,

51:59

but I think that there was

52:00

some latent hostility.

52:02

Is that something you've heard

52:04

since everything came out,

52:05

or along the way you've felt that way?

52:07

No, that's how I felt.

52:08

That is a characterization of myself.

52:10

That's how I felt about her.

52:12

I was always friendly with her.

52:17

I've seen her many, many times,

52:20

and she's also super, super close

52:23

with other people

52:24

that we were very good friends with in England.

52:27

I think that she liked Mr. Epstein.

52:33

Why do you think that?

52:37

My female intuition.

52:39

Oh, a letter.

52:44

No, I don't remember it.

52:46

It's okay.

52:48

It's possible that there's things...

52:50

Well, it's not possible.

52:52

I know that there is discovery,

52:54

but I don't recall.

52:56

But I think she had a thing.

53:00

Did...

53:02

There's some actors

53:04

or some folks from Hollywood

53:06

that I want to ask you about

53:08

just to understand whether you knew them

53:10

or Mr. Epstein knew them.

53:11

Chris Tucker?

53:12

Yes.

53:13

How did you know Mr. Tucker?

53:14

I think only from that flight to Africa,

53:17

but I do think that they met...

53:19

You say that flight to Africa,

53:20

the one we were just talking about

53:21

with President Clinton?

53:22

Yes, yes.

53:23

Okay.

53:24

Sorry.

53:25

Sorry, go ahead.

53:26

But I also think that

53:27

they kept a little bit in touch

53:29

and I think they met

53:32

or I have a memory of him,

53:34

maybe in L.A.

53:35

I don't know.

53:36

I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch.

53:38

I wouldn't...

53:39

I don't think...

53:40

I don't know.

53:41

I don't know how to say that.

53:42

Do you know Mr. Tucker

53:44

besides that flight?

53:46

No.

53:47

And do you know whether...

53:49

When you say you think that

53:51

they kept in touch,

53:52

you mean you think that

53:53

Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker...

53:55

They may have.

53:56

I didn't.

53:57

But he might have.

53:58

I'm sure.

54:00

Kevin Spacey?

54:02

I know him also from that same flight.

54:06

Aside from that flight,

54:07

do you know him from any other than?

54:09

No.

54:10

Naomi Campbell?

54:11

Yes, I do know Naomi.

54:13

And I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein

54:17

and Mr...

54:19

the former President Clinton.

54:22

Do you know whether Mr. Epstein

54:24

separately knew Ms. Campbell?

54:27

I think he probably met her through me.

54:31

That I imagine.

54:33

And so for those three,

54:36

Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey, and Ms. Campbell,

54:39

did they ever travel to

54:42

any of Mr. Epstein's properties,

54:44

the island or New Mexico?

54:47

Not Mr. Tucker.

54:48

Well, not to my knowledge,

54:50

Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey.

54:54

Naomi Campbell may have.

54:56

To where?

54:57

She may have gone...

54:58

Well, she certainly...

54:59

Well, I believe she visited

55:02

him in Palm Beach.

55:04

And I believe she may have gone to the island.

55:07

And she may have gone to see his house in New York,

55:10

whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as well, maybe.

55:13

They were friends or friendly.

55:16

Were you...

55:18

What you just said, she may have,

55:20

were you on those trips?

55:22

I don't have any independent memory of that,

55:24

so I'm not sure.

55:26

I don't think so.

55:29

Do you know...

55:30

Her relationship, her friendship,

55:33

making me use your word,

55:36

her friendship with Mr. Epstein

55:41

was independent of me.

55:43

But you also had a separate friendship with her

55:46

before you met Mr. Epstein.

55:48

I did.

55:50

Larry Summers, the former Secretary of the Treasury,

55:53

did you know that person?

55:54

I did, yes.

55:55

How?

55:56

I met Mr. Summers through Mr. Epstein.

55:59

And the same question, just generally time period.

56:02

Are you talking about early 2000s, 90s, after that?

56:07

I honestly really don't know.

56:10

I did want to say something I forgot.

56:12

But there was yesterday,

56:14

you asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties.

56:17

He had a rental in Boston as well.

56:19

But not for very long,

56:21

but it was another place that I had to put together.

56:23

And I only went with him once,

56:26

and he would go there independently of me.

56:28

I would not go with him.

56:30

Was that in the 90s?

56:32

I think it was, yes.

56:35

Mr. Summers, do you know what his relationship was

56:41

with Mr. Epstein, business, personal, both,

56:44

or don't you know?

56:45

I think he spoke to Mr. Epstein about business, I don't know,

56:49

but I think they were friends, they were friendly.

56:52

Did you know whether Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes

56:56

to any of the properties that Mr. Epstein owned?

56:59

He may have, but I don't think if he did,

57:01

I was on any of the flights.

57:03

I mean, there's other issues.

57:05

I traveled so, so much that I really,

57:08

the flights just blur.

57:10

I understand.

57:12

George Soros?

57:14

I don't think he knew him.

57:16

I did, but I don't think he did.

57:18

How did you know Mr. Soros?

57:20

I was friends with his kids.

57:22

Which kids?

57:24

John, and I can't think of his other child.

57:33

I can't think.

57:37

Who?

57:40

I met him, but just socially,

57:43

and he may not remember even having met me.

57:46

I was excited to meet him.

57:48

When are you thinking, when would you have met him?

57:50

If I met him, I think it was either at an event or at his kids,

57:54

it wouldn't have been at his house.

57:56

An event, I think actually in the Hamptons I met him.

58:00

He was staying at somebody's house, if my memory serves.

58:04

What was your relationship?

58:06

How did you know his kids?

58:08

I was out and about in New York, a lot.

58:14

So just socially?

58:16

Just socially, yes.

58:18

And, yeah, just socially, I think.

58:22

Do you know whether Mr. Soros or his kids

58:24

ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes?

58:26

I don't think so.

58:28

Did you ever visit either the island or New Mexico or Paris?

58:32

No, I don't think so.

58:37

So we tried to identify names that have come up

58:42

either publicly or in other lawsuits.

58:47

Are there any names that come to mind that we haven't?

58:52

We've talked about a lot of names.

58:54

There's some folks that you think we've forgotten to ask you about.

58:58

Well, you asked me about names, and I have some names,

59:01

and I just want to give you some context for the names as well.

59:04

Sure.

59:05

So we talked about Elizabeth Johnson yesterday.

59:08

She had a boyfriend, and he was Frederick Fekai, the hairdresser,

59:13

and he and Epstein were friendly, very friendly.

59:19

And then what time period are you talking about?

59:22

Like 90s or 2000s or both?

59:31

I think the 2000s, actually, for that.

59:33

You can date that because from when he...

59:36

I think he probably knew Frederick before he dated Elizabeth.

59:43

And when you say they were very friendly, did they travel together?

59:47

I don't know if they traveled together,

59:49

but Epstein didn't go out very much.

59:52

I mean, he did go out, but not...

59:54

And sometimes if he did, I think he would go out

59:57

and maybe see Frederick.

59:59

And then there was...

1:00:01

I mean, he had a bunch of guys that he would...

1:00:06

I would know that he would see or meet,

1:00:09

but he really...

1:00:11

I guess now I'm not sure he had any friends.

1:00:13

I don't know, but...

1:00:15

OK, what other names?

1:00:17

OK, so Henry Cherokee, who had an island near his.

1:00:23

Henry was a financier.

1:00:25

He was the guy who cornered the silver market back in the day.

1:00:28

He had an island in the Caribbean near...

1:00:31

In the British Virgin Islands.

1:00:33

And there was Branson's Island there.

1:00:35

I know that there's an allegation that they met.

1:00:38

I think...

1:00:41

I think I remember that I went to Richard Branson's Island

1:00:44

with Mr. Epstein,

1:00:46

and maybe he went another time,

1:00:49

but I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and him as friends,

1:00:52

but he did go, and I think I went with him.

1:00:57

Do you know whether Mr. Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein's Island?

1:01:00

If he did, I was not there.

1:01:02

OK.

1:01:04

Sorry, but it's possible.

1:01:05

Understood.

1:01:07

Who else?

1:01:10

Marvin Minsky.

1:01:12

He had a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly with,

1:01:15

all centered around Harvard.

1:01:18

So I remember him, Martin Novak, who's a mathematician,

1:01:23

Stephen Jay Gould.

1:01:28

I don't know if Stephen Jay Gould came through the Harvard angle,

1:01:31

but I know that there was a...

1:01:34

He would...

1:01:36

Epstein would have dinners at the house

1:01:39

that I was tasked to organize,

1:01:42

and the scientists were a very major component of that.

1:01:46

They weren't social dinners as much as they were scientific.

1:01:51

He would discuss.

1:01:53

But if you were in the area of brain,

1:01:58

cognition, or...

1:02:01

He would invite them to the house,

1:02:03

and they would come, all of them.

1:02:05

Any name you can name me, they would be there.

1:02:08

So let's talk about those associations or relationships

1:02:15

he had with the mathematicians and with Harvard,

1:02:18

and I think with MIT to some extent as well.

1:02:21

For sure, MIT too, yeah.

1:02:23

What, from what you observed,

1:02:25

what's the reason behind him having...

1:02:29

developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT,

1:02:34

and with certain professors

1:02:36

and others associated with those institutions?

1:02:39

He really was profoundly interested in that area of science

1:02:44

and in the brain and in...

1:02:47

I mean, if you were in Stephen Jay Gould

1:02:50

or the major scientist on happiness,

1:02:54

it came, I believe, from a genuine area of interest,

1:02:59

not from anything.

1:03:01

And how did he become friends with them?

1:03:07

How was he able to spend time with them?

1:03:09

Meaning, did he donate to the university

1:03:13

and then they were kind of...

1:03:15

It was mandatory fun for them?

1:03:17

Or did he have relations with them

1:03:19

where he would host them?

1:03:21

I don't know if the chicken or the egg came first.

1:03:24

But when I met him first,

1:03:27

I mean, he was already doing a lot of this stuff.

1:03:30

This is not...

1:03:31

I've read, so this is why I'm saying this.

1:03:34

I was not responsible for this area of interest.

1:03:38

I mean, I certainly...

1:03:39

Sorry, just to balance a second

1:03:41

before it slips my mind and I leave something out.

1:03:45

There was an institute in New Mexico called...

1:03:49

Anyone?

1:03:54

The institute of...

1:03:57

It's very famous.

1:03:58

We're not talking at Alamos.

1:04:00

Anyway, all right.

1:04:01

There's a very famous institute in New Mexico.

1:04:03

You can look it up.

1:04:04

It'll come to you the minute you put it in your computer.

1:04:07

And there had some of the biggest brains ever.

1:04:10

That relationship came through me.

1:04:13

So that's me.

1:04:15

And that is because my father was one of the major scientific...

1:04:23

Hit up my family fortune when I had one.

1:04:26

Came from scientific publishing.

1:04:29

And when it started from the thing that you were asking me yesterday,

1:04:35

my father was in the Second World War, I told you,

1:04:38

and he won the Military Cross,

1:04:40

and then he actually did become...

1:04:41

He was part of intelligence back in the war,

1:04:44

and his job was to interrogate German scientists

1:04:49

and prisoners of war.

1:04:52

And then he partied into a business with Springer Verlag

1:04:55

and then into Pergamon Press,

1:04:57

which was the scientific journals business.

1:05:01

And he had an interest.

1:05:03

He believed that its knowledge is what would prevent war

1:05:08

and the biggest scientific discoveries,

1:05:11

well, not all of them,

1:05:12

but many of them are coming from the Eastern Bloc.

1:05:15

And that's how we have the relationship with Santa Fe Institute

1:05:20

and Murray Gell-Mann specifically.

1:05:22

And I introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann, sorry.

1:05:25

This is the Santa Fe Institute?

1:05:27

Yes, thank you.

1:05:28

And Murray Gell-Mann was there,

1:05:31

and Murray Gell-Mann and Epstein got along very, very well.

1:05:34

He was the man of the block.

1:05:36

So do you know whether...

1:05:41

So while you...

1:05:43

When you meet Mr. Epstein in the early 90s, continuing on,

1:05:46

so not what he had done before,

1:05:49

did he...

1:05:53

Why do you think from what you saw or what you heard

1:05:56

he had the relationship or wanted to have the relationships

1:05:59

that he had with Harvard and with MIT?

1:06:01

So I think that that may have come with Wexner.

1:06:05

I'm not sure, but that's something that I think

1:06:08

that Wexner maybe had a relationship with Harvard

1:06:11

and that he used that relationship to...

1:06:15

I believe he funded a lot.

1:06:17

And if he didn't, that his clients,

1:06:19

of which Wexner obviously was one,

1:06:21

would fund, and he would then make...

1:06:24

He would arrange the fund or organize the fund or...

1:06:31

We'll take a break in a minute,

1:06:34

but just to kind of set us up for what we're going to talk about next.

1:06:40

We talked yesterday morning

1:06:42

about Mr. Epstein's kind of business

1:06:45

and how he had money.

1:06:48

Did he seem to live beyond his means

1:06:52

as far as what he was making?

1:06:54

So did you ever get the sense while you were with him

1:06:58

that it was suspicious or curious

1:07:03

how he was able to have the funds

1:07:06

to buy two planes, an island,

1:07:09

the ranch, almost unlimited funds?

1:07:14

You said it perfectly.

1:07:16

I thought it was astonishing,

1:07:18

but I didn't have any reason

1:07:21

to believe that it came from anything nefarious.

1:07:25

I saw him work...

1:07:27

I never saw him really do anything other than be on the phone.

1:07:31

And he had a lot of meetings,

1:07:33

but he had a lot of accounts.

1:07:35

And he dealt with pretty much every financier

1:07:39

that you could care to mention.

1:07:42

And if I could have access to the names,

1:07:45

I don't have to tell you which ones.

1:07:47

I just don't remember them all.

1:07:49

But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman,

1:07:55

all of them, to my mind anyway.

1:07:58

And most of the major businessmen at that time,

1:08:01

he was in the Council of Foreign Relations.

1:08:04

So you had access.

1:08:06

That's an extraordinary list of people.

1:08:09

It just is.

1:08:10

And then you asked me about his...

1:08:13

I thought about it last night,

1:08:15

how to try and explain what it was.

1:08:17

And I think the best thing is to focus

1:08:19

only on Wexner's business.

1:08:20

So I was present for some of their meetings

1:08:23

in some of their business.

1:08:26

And I listened.

1:08:28

And so things that I personally recollect

1:08:32

and I know I heard

1:08:34

was that he would...

1:08:36

When I told you yesterday,

1:08:38

I think that no detail was too small,

1:08:40

to do the contracts with the staff, I think.

1:08:43

And I saw that myself.

1:08:45

And he also organized all the trusts

1:08:48

for all the children.

1:08:50

So if Wexner had kids...

1:08:52

If he did, he did have children.

1:08:54

So every time there was a child,

1:08:56

he would create a trust for that child.

1:08:58

And these were complex financial structures

1:09:01

that would contain stocks

1:09:04

of the various businesses.

1:09:06

He restructured when I was there

1:09:09

Wexner's business in its entirety,

1:09:11

as I recollect.

1:09:13

And then not only that,

1:09:15

but there were business interests.

1:09:17

So Wexner owned or built or designed

1:09:19

or I don't quite know how to characterize it,

1:09:21

but New Albany,

1:09:23

which is a center outside of Ohio,

1:09:25

Columbus, Ohio, specifically.

1:09:28

And he built...

1:09:30

I remember this conversation.

1:09:32

He built himself a very large house.

1:09:34

Truly enormous.

1:09:36

It's one of the biggest private homes

1:09:38

and he built all the houses around him.

1:09:41

And I'm like,

1:09:42

this is so random,

1:09:43

why would you do that?

1:09:44

And he said to me,

1:09:45

well, because I want to make sure

1:09:46

that the people around me,

1:09:47

my friends,

1:09:48

I want my friends around me

1:09:49

and my neighbors.

1:09:50

And I was like,

1:09:51

well, whatever, OK.

1:09:53

I've been around

1:09:55

enormous wealth my whole life

1:09:57

and I've like...

1:09:58

At some point I just say,

1:09:59

OK, whatever, I get it.

1:10:01

And I don't...

1:10:02

And so that's what he did.

1:10:03

But Epstein ran New Albany,

1:10:05

which included a country club

1:10:08

and a golf club and a...

1:10:10

I mean, gosh,

1:10:11

your boss is one of the all-time great

1:10:13

businessmen in this area.

1:10:14

You know what that is.

1:10:16

And he certainly does.

1:10:18

So there'd be that.

1:10:19

And there was a business business

1:10:20

that Epstein...

1:10:21

Well, he told me he owned it.

1:10:22

Of course,

1:10:23

I can't say that for sure

1:10:25

because I don't know,

1:10:26

but it's a sports thing.

1:10:28

Riddell?

1:10:29

Is that a business?

1:10:30

Riddell's?

1:10:31

I thought about it last night.

1:10:32

It's red and...

1:10:34

hats?

1:10:35

Helmets?

1:10:37

Riddell's?

1:10:38

Riddell?

1:10:39

Riddell?

1:10:40

Yeah, Riddell's.

1:10:41

OK.

1:10:42

Now, how he owned that...

1:10:43

Well, he told me he owned it.

1:10:44

But how he owned that,

1:10:45

I...

1:10:46

But that was before I...

1:10:47

I think I came in

1:10:48

and he had it.

1:10:49

Or he said he did.

1:10:51

And he had other businesses.

1:10:53

He had...

1:10:54

I know this notion

1:10:55

that he did nothing

1:10:56

and he just was a grifter

1:10:57

and whatnot.

1:10:58

OK.

1:10:59

I'm not going to say

1:11:00

that's not true,

1:11:01

but it's not what I saw

1:11:02

and it's not what I believe

1:11:03

is true.

1:11:05

Not because

1:11:06

it couldn't have been

1:11:07

that he didn't grift

1:11:09

or whatever the word is

1:11:10

of people.

1:11:11

But I saw what I thought

1:11:14

looked like real work.

1:11:16

Well, why don't we take a...

1:11:18

take a break, OK?

1:11:19

Yeah.

1:11:20

Thank you.

1:11:21

All right, the time is now

1:11:22

10.35

1:11:23

and we'll take a break.

0:00

We are resuming from break, and the time is 1049 on Friday, July 25th.

0:06

Alright, so we've talked around this issue, but talked about it a little bit.

0:22

I want to spend the next hour or so, or however long it takes.

0:29

I want to focus exclusively on Epstein and his criminal conduct with respect to women.

0:40

You said yesterday a couple of times that you now recognize or think that there were things that he did that you didn't know about

0:55

that he kept from you or that you didn't see. What did you see?

1:02

So you said yesterday, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but at some point he was getting massages seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day.

1:12

Women have said that were there, that say they were there giving him massages, said that those included some sort of sexual conduct, however you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage regularly.

1:33

So what did you see and hear at the time? And then I think, aside from what you saw and heard at the time, now that you've been through what you've been through and heard people say what they've said and read, where does that leave you in your mind with what happened?

1:58

So I saw Epstein with women. What I mean by that is he would have women around him, or women on the plane, or women in his house. That's how I'm explaining that.

2:20

Those women were very interested. My characterisation of the relationships between all women that I saw with him and him was characterised by their interest in him as I would see it.

2:45

And by that I mean I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him, be with him maybe socially or whatever, I never saw anybody under any form of duress, in any type of situation where they were, as I would characterise it, looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed.

3:11

In the entire time I was with him, travelled with him, I never saw that. So any time I saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him. He would ask people all the time, whoever you were, to massage his feet.

3:29

He'd be sitting there and he'd have somebody massage his feet or squeeze his shoulders. I saw that a lot. It was an ubiquitous interaction, if you will. So I did see that.

3:45

I saw physicality, but not anything that had a character, anything that looked aggressive, I suppose, to define that. So I never saw an aggressive move, I never saw anything that was non-consensual.

4:08

Thank you. I never saw anything that was non-consensual. I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like the hug. I never saw what I would characterise as anything that was unconsensual.

4:26

Did you see him either receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw something non-consensual, did you see him engaged in sexual conduct during massages?

4:45

Well, you could define sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have been less than normally clad for a massage, but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless. Yeah, I did see that.

5:02

But what about in, so yes, I agree, that's one area. So women who were either not clothed or topless with just a bottom on, but beyond that, did you see as part of that him touching them?

5:20

And again, I'm not talking about consent or not consent or age or, you know, I'm saying like there's multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and dozens of women who have said that they were, that they engaged in sexual contact, and I agree there's a broad range of what that can, how that can be defined, but defining it in the broadest of terms.

5:43

I saw him being physical with women. I did see that, but nothing that was not consensual. And to address the issue of the large number of women who today say that he was non-consensual or coercive with them, not sure, in my mind I sort of have to characterize the two distinct areas.

6:11

There's one where is the women who are not of age, therefore anything with them is immediately unconsensual. Correct. So let's start, and I want to define anyone who's underage versus anybody who's overage, because I do think that there's a very significant differential between the two.

6:29

Well, so does the law.

6:31

I don't mean that.

6:33

No, I agree with you. Yes, I agree with you.

6:36

Okay, so I want to deal with the thing which is really why we're here. I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the other, but I just want to make a distinction with underage situation because there's nothing about that that's right.

6:49

I never saw anything with anybody who was certainly to be categorical from my trial. Let's deal with that because that's something that I can say. I never saw that with them at all, and I would say that as described anyway in my trial did not happen as described.

7:15

I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things. I don't feel comfortable saying that today given what I now know to be true, so I'm not here to defend him, but what I can say is that I did not participate in that activity.

7:32

And so let's divide this into two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll start with two areas. One is there was testimony and there's certainly been depositions and public statements that some of these young women had conversations with you about their age.

7:51

So for example, conversations about the fact that they were in high school or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day, which would be more likely to mean that they were in high school.

8:06

Would I talk to you about that? And so were there women that you knew were underage? And I say that because that's different than whether they were sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just merely their age and going to give him a massage.

8:28

No, I never knew that. And I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17, 17 in England. If someone had said they were 17, I'd have read so much that that did happen. I would never have permitted such a thing. I would never even know what I would have done.

8:53

So some of the, I think even someone who testified at trial, but certainly publicly talked about, was as young as 14 when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein. In your mind today, you kind of reject that that happened, that you saw that, meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman coming to give him a massage.

9:25

Well, I believe you're talking about Jane, and I'm very happy to address that. I actually don't think that the testimony is correct. I don't believe, no, no, no, I'm not. I just wanted to.

9:37

Yeah, yeah, I don't want to get into it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. I don't want to go there. I'm not, I'm not going to do that. But I believe that what took place with a lot of these people is that there was a slide, right? So there was a zone.

9:51

And he did meet her, and I did meet her, and I knew that she was a young child, and I knew that she was not an adult. But I don't believe he met her until she was 16. So I'm not doing a he said, she said. I'm not doing that because that's not what we're here for.

10:11

But he didn't meet her till she was 16. And the entire testimony of the 14, 15 and 16 year old is therefore not accurate. Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she was young? I absolutely did.

10:30

But everything that took place that was alleged at trial at the 14 and 15 and 16 is not accurate.

10:40

And there's testimony or there's, and again, I'm using testimony in the broadest sense. Some of this is just public statements or something that's come out in civil lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving like an 18, you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody, which again, if true, would by definition mean you knew that she was under 18. Do you recall doing that?

11:08

I do not. I mean, no memory of that at all. And I believe that would be the person that called herself Kate has now announced herself in her own podcast, who she really is. Her name is. So I did not meet until actually she was either 20 or 21. So it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card and the testimony.

11:37

Do you accept that at some point, and we talked about this yesterday about how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point, Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women.

11:53

I accept.

11:54

And I think you said yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about it. Is that something that you in your mind, one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later?

12:04

So I just also want to be clear. I never understood that change to encompass children. I did see from when I met him, he was involved or friends with, however you want to characterize it, with women who were in their 20s.

12:23

And then the slide to 18 younger looking women. But I never considered that this would encompass criminal behavior.

12:41

And so when you read, I guess two different times, right? One was during the Florida investigation when there were eventually public statements from some of these now women who testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when they were under 18.

13:06

At that point, did you realize or did you think to yourself, this happened or this could have happened? I missed it? Or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or were not remembering what happened the way that accurately?

13:26

That's a very fair question. So I think that my view of this at that time, call it as contemporaneously as it did, because I don't think that stuff came out in public. I may have read things, but my first real memory of that is at the trial.

13:46

But my viewpoint, if you will, was set from the minute that she lied in her civil deposition. And I could never recover from that.

14:01

What are you referring to? Her entire characterization. I don't remember how she came, but I'm talking about the first time she came to Epstein's house, which I knew to be false. So from that first lie of that description, I could never recover.

14:24

And that tainted the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that, because I had my own personal experience, which I knew to be false.

14:42

Yeah. And the reason why I think, and I said to Mr. Marcus this morning that we were going to talk about this, because when I think about you and the public's perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you.

15:07

Okay. Now you've explained the last day and a half how some of that's just a misperception, because you didn't have a key to his house. You weren't around as much as maybe everybody claims you were.

15:19

But there still is this perception out there that, oh my gosh, if we could talk to Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was, whatever the truth is about Mr. Epstein.

15:36

And the challenge in my mind, just to be, I told you I would tell you when I had issues, and the challenge in my mind is that so many women have said that Mr. Epstein sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults, that I don't find it, that's persuasive, right, that that happened.

16:03

And so if that's persuasive, then, and I think it's beyond contestation that he preferred younger women, and it's also beyond, I think, at this point, there were certainly circumstances that underage women, well, I don't want to say that you agree with me on that.

16:25

I certainly believe that there were younger women that were abused by him.

16:30

And so then, so the layer that I want you to, that I really want to have a frank discussion about is some of these women have said, oh yes, you know, Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees.

16:46

She saw me there, the door was open when I was there, and then much more egregious, right, that you participated and that you were part of it.

16:54

And so what I really want you to have an opportunity to say to us is where on the spectrum the truth is, whether it's somewhere in the middle, whether it's one extreme or another extreme.

17:08

Understanding, in my mind, I'm talking about 1994-5 to whenever, late 90s, early 2000s.

17:16

And let me just interrupt, and all I would say is we're not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein.

17:26

I agree with you that the evidence is overwhelming against him, and he's his own person and has to deal with that.

17:33

But Glenn can speak about what she knows and from her point of view and what she did, and that's what you can talk about, Glenn.

17:41

Okay. So I think it's helpful to put this on the time, on the calendar, because I think without that we're lost.

17:52

So I would say, we'll go from the beginning, 91, no, 2, no, 3, no, 4, no, 5, no, 6.

18:00

Now, in that time frame you have the allegations of Jane, who I dispute. I don't think you met her until she was 6.

18:09

Let's not talk about individuals.

18:10

No, no, I'm just saying.

18:11

Yeah, I'm with you.

18:12

So in that time period, I'm only aware of her. I'm aware of a girl who said, I don't know of any others,

18:27

and if there are other people who are making allegations about her, I'm not actually aware of them.

18:31

I may have read them, but I don't know.

18:34

So I think in the early 90s period, I think I'm fairly confident, and I can say that at least as characterised, it's just false.

18:44

It didn't happen as said now. Did it happen? Did he involve himself?

18:51

I knew about Jane because I saw her come to the house, but I saw her with her mother.

18:56

I know that her allegations are that there were orgies, for instance, but the people that she suggests were in her orgies

19:08

didn't even work for Epstein until 98 or 99. Did he do orgies with those people?

19:15

I don't know anybody who was there who said that they did. I certainly didn't see it. I can't say that that happened.

19:23

Did she do it with someone else? I don't know.

19:26

The stories really start, the allegations really begin with ***, and I think that you have to shift his behaviour, such as it was.

19:36

Bar, there was one in California who made an allegation. There was a woman who said that she, and she, I didn't know about.

19:43

So I think I would call her the first person. I'd be aware of him using his position to...

19:50

I'm starting to interrupt you, but I just want to... I don't want to have you... I don't think it's helpful for us to have you address each allegation.

20:03

I want you to clear your mind and just tell the truth about it. I'm not saying you're not telling the truth.

20:08

I'm saying just putting aside what other people have said or what their lawyers have said or what they testified to or the rumours in the press.

20:16

Push those aside. You were there, and so when you go back to that time period, 1993, 1999, 2001, during that time period, what did you see when it comes to young women in massages?

20:33

I saw him receive massages. He had regular masseuses in the 90s, people who were standard and who travelled with him, and I saw that.

20:42

He was living in that Iranian house, and now that I look back, he had... I didn't stay there, but I would go to manage the house.

20:51

I would see women, models, or people that he would have come to the house.

21:01

I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time. That's what I believed.

21:07

And then subsequently believed that even though she married him, I actually subsequently believed that the baby that she had was his.

21:14

Can I interrupt for one second?

21:16

Yeah, of course.

21:17

Can I just ask some basic top-line questions?

21:19

Yes.

21:20

Were you ever in a massage room with him and a masseuse?

21:24

Yes.

21:25

When was that?

21:28

Well, he would come in sometimes, and he would say, give her a massage here, or he would grab my... But not often. I mean, he did come in from time to time.

21:37

Were you ever in a massage room with him with a masseuse that was naked, or giving him any sexual favors?

21:44

I never saw that. I remember.

21:47

Did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you that they gave sexual favors to Epstein?

21:55

No.

21:57

Did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein?

22:02

No.

22:05

If you had seen that, what would you have done? Would you have left?

22:09

I can't even conceive. I can't even conceive of... I can't imagine what I would have done.

22:18

All right, I'm sorry.

22:19

No, that's okay.

22:21

Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?

22:27

Yes. I mean, when I'd seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse present, but I've seen him on a massage table.

22:36

Did you ever see him masturbate with a naked woman, either giving a massage or reporting to give him a massage?

22:47

I don't remember seeing that.

22:51

Did you give him massages, by the way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing his feet, and I think...

22:58

I certainly have been in the massage room with him, and I have certainly rubbed his feet when he would talk, but I was not a masseuse, and I didn't perform massage on him.

23:13

Did you, over the years, did you pay the masseuses?

23:21

I was typically not my job, but if there was nobody else... Normally, in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money, and in New York, he would do that, because I wouldn't be in New York when he... I mean, I don't remember ever paying a masseuse in New York.

23:38

So it wasn't your job on a regular basis to pay the masseuses, so if there was a masseuse seven days a week, it wasn't expected that seven days a week you would be the one handing them money?

23:50

Mostly I would not. I'm not saying I never did it, because that wouldn't be true, but it was not my job to pay him. I mostly recall he would either pay them himself, he would have money, or the houseman, and I think some of them would have probably received checks.

24:10

And so just picking up on what Mr. Marcus was just asking you, did you participate in sexual activity with him, with a masseuse, like at the same time?

24:24

No.

24:25

And so the testament... I don't know if there was testimony, but the women who have said that that happened, categorically that's not true.

24:34

That is categorically not true.

24:38

Did you... moving past the... moving into the 2000s?

24:46

I just want to say that I have been... I mean, I remember there would be times when he would be getting a massage, and I would be in the room, I could be on his feet, and somebody else could be on his feet, and we could be talking. So there is that.

24:59

But that's not... you're not talking about something that's sexual, you're talking about literally just rubbing his feet.

25:03

Yes.

25:04

Okay.

25:05

But I mean...

25:06

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying...

25:07

There could be... sometimes the women might be topless who were giving that, so you could say that was sexual in that context.

25:15

No, I'm talking about the repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with you present and even participating.

25:25

No.

25:27

Did you... in the 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently, when you talked about it yesterday about how your relationship with Mr. Huffington changed and was changing, and you ultimately met somebody else, did you observe any massages or young women giving him massages later on?

26:01

So after 2000, 2001 time period?

26:03

I'm sure I did.

26:05

And was there anything different about what you observed during that period and the 90s as far as frequency, his conduct towards them?

26:15

I think the frequency increased. I think he went from one to two in that time period.

26:20

But I did not see... I have no recollection of ever seeing a child entering the house and giving him a massage.

26:36

I... at that time he had moved me out of the main house. I had moved into an office with John Alessi, the former atler, under the stairs. So I had an office where I would be that was not part of the house.

26:54

If I saw people, and I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give him a massage, that wouldn't be true either, but if I saw someone, let's say, I wouldn't... I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterise as a child.

27:11

Now, specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at the time when she came, if I did see her, and I don't believe I did see her or meet her at all, but if she did, she was, as she's described herself now, was very mature and looked in her 20s.

27:32

So could somebody have come that was more mature looking than the allegation of what she did look like with a photograph that was produced as evidence? Yes.

27:44

Yes. I never recall at any time seeing what I would characterise as a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see people come? I absolutely did. Did I... I just didn't see children. I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child, and if I had seen a child, I wouldn't... I'm not sure what I would have done.

28:14

Did you... Just talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger picture, do you... At the time that you were in his life, did you... Was he... Did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or... I don't know what the right way to describe it, but when you say to me, he was getting massages every single day, right?

28:36

So young women were everywhere, multiple massages on some days, flew with the women to the island, to New York, Paris. There's always women, they're always rubbing him, giving him massages. I think it would be an understatement to say that that's not normal. I agree.

28:52

We've all kind of been part of the Epstein story over the past several years, but you were there at the time, okay? What was it like at the time? I mean, was he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing? Was he protective of how he looked publicly, image-wise? At the time, what was it like?

29:15

I think if he had been creepy, like as you would define and you would expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy, I don't think the women would have been there. I don't think that they thought of him as creepy, and if they did, I never saw them behave like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was, for sure.

29:40

I found it overwhelming, and I couldn't understand why it was interesting, because to me, it's not interesting. But as he defined it, he found it invigorating, he liked being with younger people. I'm not just younger people, I'm just saying because they gave him ideas and they were up to date on music.

30:05

I'm just telling you what he was saying to me. To me, I just found it a drag, and difficult and annoying.

30:21

I understand. I wasn't the only person present, so this time in the 2000s, you're talking about other people like Sarah Cullen, who was around, who interfaced with him. She was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his life. She was his assistant.

30:47

That's a fair point, but move beyond his assistants or the folks that work with him, what about his friends and the people that were associated with him? I don't understand how this is an after fact of Mr. Epstein.

31:08

So once he's arrested in Florida, it becomes part of his story, and then later on, he's charged in the Southern District, and then here we are now in 2025. But he was a very successful, hardworking guy, and he had a lot of clients, and he flew with them on vacations and went to the island.

31:25

I don't understand how he was able to hide what seems to me to be some sort of sexual fixation or issue from others.

31:38

I don't think he did hide it. That's the answer, and I think that the people around him, myself included obviously, normalized his behavior on a number of fronts.

31:51

One, I think it, because it was a self, because so many people saw it, of so many, of such a high caliber down, that never seemed to think it would, well, if they thought it was strange, probably they never said it at the time.

32:12

So it became sort of like it was his thing, right? He was always around with women. Now you don't, I understand that it's very unattractive, especially in light of everything that we know today, but at the time, the only way I can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and the City.

32:42

The movie, the show on telly, where this is, that lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly. There are always these women around and men who like it, and a lot of the men that I know like women.

33:00

And so maybe not as overtly as Epstein, but he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior. So what we're discussing now, there's a difference between the criminal behavior and the non-criminal, but you don't like the lifestyle.

33:18

I concur. I agree, especially now, and I own my side of that fence, that I was there and that I saw his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or do something.

33:37

But I don't think back in the 90s or the 2000s, we've had a cultural shift. And the cultural shift, I think, is a very important part of the analysis here.

33:52

Not because I'm trying to justify this, because I'm not, and I'm not trying to, and I absolutely am not here to do the Poor Me program, so please don't misunderstand this.

34:03

However, in the 2000s, when this behavior was going down, in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation, the women who brought the women who were under age 17, 16, I believe, if my memory serves, were actually targets of the investigation and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking, if trafficking was even a law.

34:31

So you're taking behavior, and I did introduce him to women, I did, but not underage women. I understand that there are allegations, I have read them about myself going to schools, I can categorically tell you that I have never in my life gone to a school to pick up a child.

34:58

Well, not for this purpose, I mean, like, my stepchildren, but, okay, sorry.

35:05

No, I understand.

35:06

Okay, thank you. I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute or anything. But I did look for masseuses, I did, I went to spas, and if I met somebody who said she was a masseuse, I did not check their credentials.

35:24

And of course, if she was attractive, I did introduce it, yes. If I met friends who were interested, he was constantly asking me to meet new and interesting people. I did do that.

35:36

At the time, I viewed it as, well, first of all, part of my job, I think, or part of my responsibility, if you were to introduce, because it wasn't just women.

35:49

If I met somebody who was interested, like Mary Gellman, or who I thought he would like, I did that. So it's not exclusively, but he did. And I did do that.

35:59

So, but then, so I want to layer on top of what you just said, what we talked about yesterday more, but a little bit today already, which is everybody that was around him besides you, like his friends.

36:12

Right.

36:13

I accept the lifestyle. I've seen the photos, the fact that everybody's, we're all going to go to the island for a couple days, or flying on a private plane, and there's beautiful women everywhere.

36:23

Is there any, I mean, do you, as you sit here today, think that the people around him didn't also, weren't also of the same place where they were also getting massages, where there was sex going on during them, or things like that.

36:44

And I'm obviously asking this because that's what everybody has said. And when you just described what it was like, the very next step from that is everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend, you know.

36:58

And so, and so you, it seems kind of far-fetched to say that yes, that was his lifestyle, but then when he's taking groups of folks to the island, or groups of folks to New Mexico, or whatever, that they're all, you know, going to church in the morning while he's getting a massage.

37:16

I hear you. I was there though, and you're talking about very substantial people, and you are extrapolating because the narrative that started in, by the way, not until 2009 is when it really started.

37:36

So that narrative that was created, and then built upon, and it just mushroomed into what, basically this is like a Salem witch trial. People have gone and lost their minds for this thing.

37:48

I understand that, but the issue is how do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle because it's like P. Diddy and Redux on TV with Clintons and Trumps. I mean, it's bananas.

38:05

And while some of it is real, he did do those things. I'm definitely not disputing that. But this was a man, they didn't even believe he had a real business. I happen to believe he did.

38:20

Did he grip? I don't know because I wasn't really in his business, but this is the one man. He's not some, they've made him into this, he's not that interesting. He's a disgusting guy who did terrible things to young kids.

38:43

You're not going to hear me say what he did to people who are over the age of 18. I'm sorry, I'm not going to go there. That's just not what I'm here to, I mean, okay.

38:56

But to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton would suddenly go, oh my gosh, this is like a guy, I'm going to get my body rubbed and have something. The men that went and had a massage and maybe did something sexual?

39:20

I'm in. I wasn't in the room. I cannot tell you if that happened. And if it did, I never paid for that, just so that we're clear. Nobody ever said to me, oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse and that stuff was a three.

39:35

I'd be like, okay, TMI, not my business. It's just not. And I didn't want to know. Maybe there's that. But did I think these guys were coming for that? I really don't.

39:50

If you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast of characters, of which it's extraordinary, some of whom are in your cabinet, who you value as your co-workers and you know, would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favours.

40:08

A man wants sexual favours, he will find that. They didn't have to come to Epstein for that. Now, did some, okay, I don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't see it.

40:21

So, when's the last time you think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got a massage?

40:37

I want to say 2007.

40:46

2007?

40:47

Yes.

40:48

And the frequency at that point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak, would you say? Meaning the number of interactions he was having daily with women and masseuses?

41:10

I wasn't really in his life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2007. I was with Ted and we, I was still speaking with Epstein because I was still involved in his, you know, loosely with his, the houses and the staff and some of the billing.

41:28

And I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York and Epstein offered me a ride and so Ted dropped me off in St. Thomas and I was on the island, I believe, for one day and one night only.

41:43

On that visit, I believe, well I know you would have gotten a massage, but I have, there were people there, but I did not, there were women and I was just relieved not to be leaving the next day.

42:01

Let's take a break.

42:03

We're going to take a break. The time is 11.31.

0:00

We are resuming the audio recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell and the time is

0:06

1149 A.

0:10

I wanted to follow up about former President Clinton's relationship with Mr. Epstein, not

0:21

you.

0:22

Can you, we touched on it, but can you just set the, I have a couple questions about it,

0:31

What's your understanding of their relationship from what you observed, meaning former President

0:38

Clinton and Mr. Epstein?

0:39

I saw them talk.

0:40

I saw them sit down and have chats about, I don't know, I wasn't either party or didn't

0:47

listen.

0:01

And I know I would characterize originally anyway Mr. Ebsine's interest in him because obviously he's the former president

0:08

But I never saw him, other than that, I saw him be friendly on the plane

0:13

But I never, I don't believe, I don't recollect anyway ever seeing them in any other context

0:20

I don't remember him at his house in New York. Like I said, I don't believe he ever went to the island

0:25

I think that was just a

0:28

That was a story that

0:30

Did. Do you know one way or the other whether their relationship continued

0:37

Without you like when you kind of moved on past Mr. Ebsine? I don't believe so

0:42

Why do you say that you don't believe so? Because I don't think they had a relationship even when I was there. I was

0:49

I

0:51

President Clinton

0:53

Liked me and

0:56

We got along

0:58

Terribly well, but I never saw that warmth or that

1:03

That warmth, like how you want to characterize it with Mr. Ebsine and so I didn't see that. I didn't see any interest in

1:10

I didn't see

1:12

President Clinton being interested in Ebsine. He was just a rich guy with a plane

1:16

when

1:17

when

1:18

Southern New York case kind of became public and there was a search warrant of Mr. Ebsine's house

1:24

There was like a there was some sort of painting or picture

1:27

Mr. Clinton and then like a blue dress that had been signed

1:30

Did you know do you know where he got that picture?

1:35

So you never observed that in his

1:40

Brownstone

1:43

What's that again, I thought it was hideous

1:46

And but you had never so you don't know sitting here today where Mr. Ebsine got it the circumstances what you got it

1:55

Do you know of any other

1:58

Gifts or

2:01

Paraphernalia or art or pictures that former President Clinton gave to Mr. Epstein

2:09

No, I mean did he maybe get him a gift I don't know I have no knowledge of that and then

2:19

Going back to the topic we were talking about before our last break

2:23

Well

2:26

Wouldn't you you said something yesterday at the very beginning of our conversation that when you first met mr. Epstein and

2:35

You ultimately have sex with him that he had

2:41

I'll use the word erectile dysfunction, but he had issues having sex

2:46

That's what he told me. That's what he told you. Yeah, okay, and

2:50

And then over the years he said some time the 90s he started taking testosterone

2:54

Yes

2:56

I don't know if it was in the 90s. I don't remember when he started, but it wasn't he had to patch

3:02

Okay

3:03

Dermal like on his arm. Yes, okay, and then he was ridiculous because you shouldn't take more than one

3:09

But sometimes he had like well, I'm like, what are you doing? It's like unhealthy. Okay

3:15

From what you observed or saw her

3:18

I'm

3:19

Did he continue to have challenges sexually over the years or do you think that whatever he told you whatever issue he told you

3:26

He had was fixed. I think was a lie

3:30

You think it's lying about what about his erectile dysfunction? Oh, you mean you never you don't think he ever had any issues

3:36

You think he just told you that that is what I believe today

3:39

Yeah, but given if any of the stories are true, you couldn't have had erectile dysfunction

3:43

Priapism for Christ's sake. Well, that's what's one of the reasons for my questions. I mean you're right. I mean and again where we're

3:50

we've talked about this a fair amount, but

3:54

What did like the stories of what masseuse is?

3:58

underage and

4:00

Overage have said about him is or you know and what he liked what he demanded that they do whether it's watching him

4:11

masturbate or

4:12

Pinching his nipples, you know kind of things that that are

4:16

unusual

4:18

Do you believe that like do you from what you saw from what you observed from what you did when your relationship with him?

4:24

Or is that true? I

4:26

well

4:27

The bulk of what I read he did not have sex. So that is consistent with what he told me actually and

4:34

his masturbating that is also consistent with what I knew myself and

4:39

I'm going to use a bad word. Please you can use whatever word you need. Yes blowjob. Okay

4:46

He like blowjobs that I did observe and he didn't seem to have any erectile dysfunction for blowjobs, but sex he didn't have so when I

4:55

Have read the stories about the allegations of sexual rape. I find that

5:01

Challenging because that was not his modus operandi from my perspective

5:06

But when you read about

5:09

Blowjobs that does that that would be consistent with that would be consistent as would masturbation. Yes

5:16

Did you talk to?

5:20

masseuses or women that were either he was in relationship with or

5:25

Who asked you about

5:27

Working with him. Did you tell them? Yes. He likes blowjobs. Yes. He'll masturbate in front of you

5:33

Like did you have conversations with any of those with women about?

5:38

What mr. Epstein liked or what would make him happy or things like that? I

5:43

Don't have any memory of telling anybody about that

5:47

I think I may have choked like saying oh my god, you know, like from a sex in the city scene that

5:54

But not I never instruct the question you're asking me. Sorry. Let's just be clear

5:58

Did I ever instruct anyone how to pressure mr. Epstein your question? No

6:04

And

6:06

You said this earlier, but I want to just you kind of said it on your own

6:10

I want to ask the question just so I make sure that there's no confusion

6:17

when

6:19

When you

6:21

Over the years

6:26

The idea that I would have to explain to a woman have to satisfy with the scene is painting it

6:31

Because he clearly was able to explain himself it didn't need an interlocutor to explain what he liked

6:37

He's been doing this obviously with this some version of their story his whole life and did not require any help from me

6:48

then

6:51

So did you did you ever observe him having sex with a masseuse?

6:57

Regular intercourse not a blowjob. Nothing else where you either walked in or you were in the room

7:01

I never saw I've seen have sex with any person and so how about oral sex?

7:13

Did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex with you were in the room or

7:19

Walked in or I never saw anyone go. I've seen a blowjob

7:26

But you said earlier you you did see him

7:29

masturbating in front of masseuses

7:32

I don't know if I said that I don't know. Okay. Sorry

7:35

Let me ask you a question. Sorry. No, that's fair. That's fair

7:40

I'm sure I saw him in

7:43

What some people could define a sexual contact so that somebody could not have their clothes or topless

7:48

I would say maybe I I could say that if I saw him

7:53

Having a masturbating when someone was like, I don't recall that I don't have a specific memory of it

7:58

Okay, but no, I'm not okay. I didn't say that

8:02

Okay, I know I understand that's right. I'm not that's okay. So let's try to put words in your mouth

8:08

So and you said I think in passing maybe not in passing your story about about

8:19

You know whether whether other

8:22

people who travel with him would get massages

8:26

Or so that would I'm when I say that I'm referring mostly to the island or potentially, New Mexico

8:33

But

8:34

Also at the Palm Beach residents or even in New York

8:38

do you know to could do you have a list of names in your head or

8:43

Names that come to mind of people that you know did get massages when they were with mr. Epstein

8:50

No, there's no list. There's no list of people getting massages. I don't have I can barely recall all the people

8:56

I can barely recall I

9:00

Struggle to recall actual

9:02

People that I met and I may have met a long time

9:05

I had even forgotten that about mr. Kennedy or we brought it up yesterday

9:10

It just came to my mind now, so I don't have and there's no list. There was never a list

9:15

there was no or setting none that I ever saw none I ever heard of none that I ever witnessed none that I

9:22

There's no list. There's never been a list and you never heard mr. Epstein talk about such a list never

9:28

And he never had mr. Epstein

9:33

Suggests that

9:35

he had some sort of control over somebody because of what he knew about what they had done or

9:42

Had photos of them. I never heard him now. I never heard him ask questions about that. I never heard him

9:49

So I've been present many times with masseuses

9:52

I never who presumably could or maybe did massage somebody and I'm not saying that they don't not

9:58

Just in the quarter. I never heard him ask

10:01

Any question of any masseuse who may have given a massage to a friend?

10:05

It was on the island or in Palm Beach or anywhere else for that any details about that massage

10:10

Like does he have a funky food? No, and I never heard that he said we weird

10:16

and I

10:18

Think at one of the bricks today your lawyer may have showed you

10:23

Something that just came out in the paper. I think this morning or last night

10:27

a letter

10:29

That you that that is attributed to you

10:33

Associated with this birthday book from 2003 that we talked about

10:38

Yesterday is did you see that letter?

10:40

Is that in fact look like your handwriting or something you wrote?

10:44

So I don't remember the letter. Okay, but it does look like my handwriting and it does look like my name

10:49

And it looks like it could be real, but I have no memory of writing that and I

10:55

Don't remember it at all

10:56

Do you remember what the birthday book as they're calling it would it like look like like how it was put together?

11:02

I do what do you remember about it? I remember it it was leather bound

11:06

I remember it being about yay big it was big

11:10

So you're saying it looks like it's like over 12 inches 14 15 inches. Yes

11:14

It was like sort of like folio size, I guess or something like that and like this and it was brown and thick

11:22

Like this thick, okay, and

11:25

So just so you so I understand on heavy stock paper heavy stock paper like 14 inches high

11:33

and then around like

11:36

What a for a force? Okay?

11:37

We had a for because it was done on heavy stock paper

11:41

But I can't remember if it was folio size paper or it could have just been a for oh, I see

11:46

So it could have just been letter size or it might have been legal size. Yes, heavy stock paper. Yes, and

11:51

the

11:52

So the the folks that submitted letters were given the stock paper or how were the letters or did you like?

12:00

Glue or something the letters to the stock paper every which way some were given a paper and they did their own thing

12:06

Some would send me some scrap of paper and I would put it on the thing

12:10

Some I didn't get because they get straight to Epstein and I was just told to put them in like I said

12:17

And how was it bound it went to a professional binder who did it like a book that you'd seen the library

12:26

So like like the glue that keeps a regular book a novel that you would read together. It was bound that way

12:32

I believe so. I don't think it was stitched, but I don't remember. I mean it was professionally down by a professional bookbinder

12:40

And then after you presented it or after it was presented to him when he turned 50

12:46

Did you see the leather bound book? Did he keep it somewhere in particular? It was in his bookcase in 71st Street

12:54

in Manhattan in Manhattan, and did you see it over the years and until you stopped going to the brownstone I

13:02

saw it I

13:03

know I did see it because it was right behind his desk and

13:08

After I stopped going I don't know what happened to it. And do you know?

13:13

Do you remember being told or knowing?

13:16

Where the book is now?

13:18

No, but I when I received in discovery those pages I assumed that it had been found when

13:26

either

13:28

New York or the island was searched and I assumed that the Southern District of New York had it

13:33

But I think you said yesterday, but just to go over it again in case you remember anything differently

13:38

You recall seeing some of the letters in discovery. I do

13:43

But you don't recall kind of seeing the leather book

13:47

Start to finish but remember I didn't see all discovery because they were very clever about you know

13:53

I didn't receive all discovery period and

13:56

in fact

13:58

In very important items were not given to me at all including witness testimony from grand jury so whether

14:04

So you don't know one where the other were whether it was part of discovery

14:08

You just know that you didn't get it. It wasn't part of discovery that was given to you, correct

14:12

But there's a I

14:14

Don't I'm absolutely sure that the Sun District of New York hid very important pieces of evidence from me and I assumed

14:26

That they leaked it because where else would it be?

14:30

If that's what it is if it's true, so I've just so I put

14:41

I'll say it to you talk a little bit. You worry about it. I

14:45

Said to you yesterday

14:48

That the purpose of what we did yesterday and today was was exactly what we did

14:53

which is to have a conversation about about about mr. Epstein and about you and

14:59

I

15:00

think it's it's very challenging to

15:04

Talk about everything we talked about and you know

15:08

One and a half days or in just a period of hours

15:11

So I'll talk to mr. Marcus about kind of what we're gonna do next if anything

15:18

There's no and I don't I'm not being

15:22

Koi or I just I don't know yet. I don't know so we I have a lot of

15:28

We have some work to do

15:31

we'll do it with your lawyers to accept we have questions or follow up and

15:38

This has been very helpful I I think it's

15:43

It was you, you know who kind of said you wanted to talk but but it we gladly accept it

15:49

So so I do appreciate you

15:53

Being willing to meet with us

15:55

and

15:57

And I expect that will that will be in touch

16:01

so

16:05

This concludes the recorded

16:09

Proffer interview of miss Maxwell the time is 1205 p.m. On Friday, July

16:15

25th

4,510 segmentsTranscribed by Epstein Pipeline (faster-whisper)